Episode 34: Being an introvert in the workplace – with Alexandra Galviz of Authentic Alex

Alexandra Galviz tells us about the characteristics of being an introvert, what it means to be an introvert in the workplace, why even introverts need social interaction and the steps you can take to thrive in the office.

Today’s guest

Alexandra Galviz of Authentic Alex

Website: Authentic Alex

LinkedIn: Authentic Alex

By day Alex coaches C-suite, consultants, entrepreneurs and businesses on how to get noticed on LinkedIn, grow their own brands and leverage the platform to achieve their goals.

By night she turns into a superhero LinkedIn blogger under the hashtag #AuthenticAlex. Every single thing that you’d be scared of sharing publicly, she’s either written, videoed or spoken about.

In between Alex trains apprentices and graduates in corporates, creates digital content on employability skills and keynotes at universities, career fairs and social mobility events.

She is also a co-creator of a little side project called #LinkedInLocal that has turned into THE biggest hashtag campaign on LinkedIn, creating communities in 90 countries and 1,000 cities in under two years before handing over the reins to LinkedIn.With a knack for community building, Alex helped form LocalX with the other founders of #LinkedInLocal, a community consulting start-up which helps businesses and organisations create, nurture and scale their own communities.

What you’ll learn in this episode

  • The importance of your values aligning with the industry in which you work
  • How we’re taught by society always to want more, and whether our goals are always our own
  • Why we should be talking more about work experience, especially to young people
  • What it means to be an introvert (it’s not the same as being shy)
  • The dangers of limiting ourselves as a result of our self-identity
  • Why even introverts need social interaction and how a “hermit” lifestyle is bad for you
  • How introverts can overcome fears of interacting socially and why it’s worth doing so

Resources mentioned in this episode

Please note that some of these are affiliate links and we may get a small commission in the event that you make a purchase.  This helps us to cover our expenses and is at no additional cost to you.

Episode 5: interview with Ali Temple of Steadfast Coaching

To see the resources recommended by all our guests, visit the Resources page.

Episode 34: Being an introvert in the workplace - with Alexandra Galviz of Authentic Alex

Jeremy Cline 0:15
Hello, and welcome to the Change Work Life podcast, where we're all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. If you identify as an introvert then this episode is definitely for you. Alexandra Galviz is a coach, she's a LinkedIn blogger, and she's also a founder of LinkedIn local, which organises local meetups so that people can meet offline as well as online. But she's also a real introvert, and in this episode we talk about what that means and how anyone who thinks they're an introvert can still thrive in the workplace. Here's the interview.

Jeremy Cline 0:46
Hi, Alex, welcome to the podcast.

Alexandra Galviz 0:48
Hi, Jeremy.

Jeremy Cline 0:49
Alex, can you start off by explaining a bit about who you are and what you do and what you're about?

Alexandra Galviz 0:54
Sure. My name is Alex, but I'm also known as Authentic Alex on LinkedIn and for the last about almost three years now, I left my corporate job and started up as a coach helping people build their thought leadership and brand on LinkedIn, having done that myself. I also run workshops and trainings in upskilling graduates and students on employability, that sort of thing, and then I also very newly set up a business about three or four months ago with my partner that helps people reconnect and find their purpose.

Jeremy Cline 1:29
Wow, okay. Can I ask what the corporate job was that you left?

Alexandra Galviz 1:33
Yes, I was the head of learning and development for a foreign exchange company.

Jeremy Cline 1:37
And have you always been in learning and development, or is that something that you came to doing?

Alexandra Galviz 1:42
Yeah, I was very fortunate to fall into it. I had actually studied French at university, and I got headhunted straight out of uni into foreign exchange as my first job. I was in that company for about two years. And for the first year, I was sort of in a very kind of junior entry level position. And in the second year, I started to implement some L&D initiatives, even though they weren't tied to the role that I was doing. And off the back of that a competitor kind of interviewed me for a different role, and then heard about what I was doing in that business and asked me to come over and help them do the same really.

Jeremy Cline 2:17
And the current business which you said you've just started. What motivated you to start that?

Alexandra Galviz 2:22
Yeah, so that is a business that I've been wanting to set up pretty much since I left my corporate job. I basically from a very young age strived to achieve the traditional corporate dream that we are sold as young people. And I came from very humble beginnings. So that was something that was very instilled in me at a young age. And I had this dream that by the time I'm 30, I want to have designer clothes, travel internationally, work in the city, and have all the successes in society we think those things are. And I just got that at 24 instead of 30, and went actually this isn't really quite what had in mind, it's not how I thought I'd feel, I'm not feeling fulfilled and just felt kind of lost really, you know if this isn't what I want to do, and I've been working towards it for the last eight years - what do I want to do with my life? And that kind of sent me on this sort of self development personal development quest. I was fortunate to be doing L&D so the business sort of invested a lot in me going to these sort of workshops and seminars etc, about sales and development and all that sort of stuff. And through that, realising I'm actually not in the right place - you know, my values don't align with the industry that I'm in. I don't really like elements of the environment that I'm in, but I love what I'm doing. I love developing people, I love training. And one of those initiatives that I did in my journey of self inquiry was going to a workshop called something along the lines of 'Quiet' and it was, funny enough - going on to the topic that we'll talk about - he was an introvert, coaching introverts. And with a very kind of creative spin on it. And I absolutely loved that workshop. It was two full days, and his name is Pete Mosley. I just got really inspired by what he was doing, and I got so much out of those two days. It wasn't the only thing, but it was definitely one of those things that really kind of propelled me forward and made me realise what I wanted to be doing with my life and time. And then I just thought one day, I want to be able to do this for people too. But I think I was reluctant to do it straight away having left my job, because for me integrity is a huge thing. And if I'm going to teach people how to go after what their purpose is or what they're interested and passionate about and make a living out of it, I need to be able to prove that I can do that for myself and you know, be in a comfortable place, financially and emotionally etc to be able to deliver that kind of work. And two years later, I was in a good place and thought, okay, let's give this a go. I do run it with my partner who happens to work in the wellbeing space, so that was a quite nice kind of complimentary skills to put together you know, the mind and the business and the psychology matching the kind of body experience and practices and mindfulness etc. So that's how that all kind of came about.

Jeremy Cline 5:17
Just going back to one of the things that you mentioned, you said humble beginnings and feeling that you were supposed to get into the whole corporate sort of work space and lifestyle. How did that influence present itself? Did this come from your parents? From your upbringing? Did it come from your friends? Did it come from a general feeling in society?

Alexandra Galviz 5:40
I think I'd say all of those combined. I grew up in a council flat and my dad left my mom when I was about one. So I grew up in a single parent household. I came from immigrant parents, first generation to go to university. So I mean, I ticked every single box that you could tick off in terms of not growing up in the best of circumstances. And when you don't have power, you want power. When you don't have status, you want status. When you don't have money, you want money. You want to change the outcome of your life in comparison to how you potentially grew up. And that's kind of what we're taught not just through family, but also through society with all the stuff - 'be more', 'do more', all the advertising is like 'more,' 'grow', 'climb,' 'fast'. And that was the kind of ethos of my life. I think that part of that is I got into that position at 24. I was in leadership by the time I was 24. And that's ridiculously quickly! But I think I was really a dog with a bone trying to achieve this big dream, this big goal. And what we don't tend to talk about with goals is that sometimes they're either not our own, or we don't think through that actually, once we get it, it might not be as great as we thought it is. We always think of them as a positive thing. So that was a massive wake up call. I can definitely say I've changed my relationship with goals!

Jeremy Cline 7:04
And you talked about it not aligning with your values it. How did you identify that that was happening? I mean, did you go through an exercise of working out what your values were, sort of writing them down? Or was it more sort of intrinsic to you than that?

Alexandra Galviz 7:17
No, I did. I went to an NLP kind of taster day. And in the booklet we had, we had a list of values, and they said, you know, narrow it down to five. And it just it was things like authenticity and vulnerability and integrity. And just realising that I'm really not in an industry that promotes that! It's at the bottom of their list! They might have the kind of slapstick values on the wall, but they don't live that. There's a lot of cultures in the financial services that don't have that - very rarely do. And especially when I go and speak to young people about my career path that are looking to get into finance - I do a lot of talks with social mobility charities - and I say just because I've had a bad experience does not mean that you will. The problem is I didn't have the patience to find that needle in the haystack. I think that I was just like, I'm just gonna quit and do my own thing, because my experiences haven't been great.

Jeremy Cline 8:17
I promise we will come on to the topic in hand, but I'm just intrigued at how you sort of built up your brand. So how you've got to a place where you are delivering these talks to charities and young people and that sort of thing.

Alexandra Galviz 8:29
I got into it because I started creating content on LinkedIn. And I started doing that for fun, really, more than anything. I just left my university. I was maybe one or two years into my corporate job, and I saw someone write a post about how do you get internship in the city. And I thought I've just finished uni where I did four internships every summer in business, and I gained so much and I wish people talked more about the importance of work experience to young people. And I also - like I said - I didn't really have many role models, because I didn't belong to a family that had connections or older siblings where I wanted to be, for example. And so I thought, you know what, I'm going to be the person I didn't have and share as much as I can, because somewhere out there, someone might need that advice that I didn't have. And it started off like that. And then my first article I published - this was back in the day where LinkedIn had Pulse - and they republished it and it got seen by 5000 people, and I thought, wow, okay, I have something interesting and valuable to say to people. And from then on, I sort of started sharing more and more things around career development, personal development, and sort of joining a little bit about my experience, tying it a lot into my stories. And then it wasn't really until I left my corporate job that I wrote a post about, you know, when I was a little girl I used to dream of working in this really tall building with a pointy top by the river - Canary Wharf - and having reached the 45th floor realised that my definition of success was wrong and it was based on money, power and status, but it sometimes it takes getting to where you want to be to realise it's not where you're meant to be. And I've posted that on my lunch break. And by the time I got to my leaving drinks, over 80,000 people had read it. And this was sort of averaging 2-3000 views per article. And this all of a sudden kind of catapulted me into the limelight. This was me being really open and raw and vulnerable, and just showing it how it was. And it resonated with a lot of people that either think or feel that way. I kind of continued doing that. I thought, you know what, it seems like not many people are kind of showing up on LinkedIn in a kind of very honest, open way. I'm gonna say it how it is. And that's what I started doing. I started sharing what it was like to go to therapy, what it was like to have depression and suicidal ideation. I talked about being bullied as a kid and my troubles with education - but then I also showed my successes, and that slowly fuelled an audience that were interested in also sharing their stories and interested in being open about vulnerable and talking and destigmatising important issues in society and off the back of growing that audience and that following over things that matter to me and also matter to them, people started saying, Would you come into my office and speak to my staff? Could you talk about how you've built your brand on LinkedIn? Could you come and talk to my students? And people were paying me for it. And that's really kind of how I tumbled into my new career, in a way!

Jeremy Cline 11:29
That's brilliant. Thank you so much for that background. That was really interesting. Now, I know that one of the topics you talk to people about is being introverted - introversion - and you've written about it as well. Let's first identify what we're talking about. How would you describe what an introvert is or someone who is introverted?

Alexandra Galviz 11:49
So I think that one of the things that people make the biggest mistake of thinking in terms of introversion is 'they're just shy' - and it really isn't the case. It's more the case of we recoup our energy in different ways. I think that's really the crux of it. We get our energy from different places. So for example, an extrovert would gain a lot of their energy from being around crowds and being around people and being highly energised. An introvert would get a lot of their energy and replenish their energy from being on their own and doing kind of very solo activities like reading or writing or painting, etc. And they enjoy being alone. But they also like the social part. And this is where I think there's a lot of misconceptions because they think 'Oh, no, they don't like being with people. They like being on their own.' I'm a very social person at heart. But being in big crowds for long periods of time really super drains me. So for example, when I'm speaking at a conference, I won't have anything in my diary the next day because I will be at home on my own chilling and not doing anything crazy. Because I need that time to kind of replenish.

Jeremy Cline 13:03
Okay, so immediately what you've said is that being an introvert doesn't mean that you can't be social, go to network things and succeed in that, talk at conferences - it's just the effect that it has on you might mean that it either takes your energy if you're an introvert or if you're an extrovert, it actually gives you energy and so in fact, you could then do it 12 days on the trot or whatever?

Alexandra Galviz 13:25
Yeah, and I have done it. It's not fun! [Laughs] Yeah.

Jeremy Cline 13:29
So how does your description of what an introvert is compared to how someone who says, 'I'm introverted' sees themselves? What do they think is going on?

Alexandra Galviz 13:40
I think you're a lot more introspective as well. So you spend a lot of a lot more time kind of thinking inwards versus thinking out loud. A lot of extroverts have the tendency of if they're thinking something or wanting to share an idea, they'll just say it and they wouldn't hesitate. They wouldn't even think about it. For an introvert, I will be thinking in my mind, and also I will take my time before I say something out loud. So I want to make sure I have a calculated thought out thought that I want to share before kind of blurting something out without really thinking it through. It used to drive my boss crazy. Because in meetings, for example, if you put this in a business context, it can be either really annoying or really good. Because what you'll see is a lot of introverts will be very quiet in meetings. I used to find it very difficult to input in meetings because you're expected to have an instant answer. And especially when you're working with complex problems or issues, sometimes time and reflection, internal dialogue is needed before I share what I have to say in terms of that subject.

Jeremy Cline 14:51
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I'll sometimes be on a call or in a meeting and someone will ask me a question and I do find myself pausing and thinking - I want to get the answer right. I'm just kind of pondering, Okay, so if I put it this way, then this might be reaction, if I put it that way this is going to be reaction. I've got to really think quite carefully - I find myself needing to think quite carefully about what I'm going to say.

Alexandra Galviz 15:13
Definitely. And I think very often as well, you can get introverts that are also HSPs. So highly sensitive people. And these are - and I'm both, which is good and bad! - but that's where then they get overly stimulated. And this can be again, like in that social situation, or lots of loud music or that sort of stuff - that very often you can find that goes hand in hand.

Jeremy Cline 15:38
How does that sort of manifest itself in terms of the sort of the physical feelings if you're in that sort of situation?

Alexandra Galviz 15:44
Drained! Like I need a bed pretty quickly. Yeah, just tired, I would say. And I think you get to a point that you also become a little bit irritable. I say that from personal experience because I was out a lot yesterday and I came home and I was almost a bit edgy, because I spent way too much time in Oxford Circus where there's so many people. And it's as simple as that. It's going out in crowds for long periods of time. Even if I'm not actually physically interacting and speaking to people, I can feel it - like an actual physical feeling. That's what I meant.

Jeremy Cline 16:20
So I quite often see comments - and this is on careers boards, that sort of thing online - where people will say something like, 'I'm an introvert. So I want a job where I literally just have to sit by myself and don't have to have much interaction with people.' And I kind of wonder, first of all, are they really identifying what's going on with them? And from what you're saying, then, it's not necessarily that they need to have that alone time. And I also sometimes feel that people who say that - they're kind of self-limiting themselves, but I'd be interested to know what you think about this. I mean, whether this is something that's kind of to be embraced, and if you think you are someone who wants to just sit in a cubicle all day and never talk to anyone, then actually yeah, you should do that - or whether it pays to think a bit more about what's going on and find ways so that you get to be in an environment that you're comfortable with, but you don't limit yourself because that kind of decision - all I want to do is sit in a cubicle by myself - that's going to close down an awful lot of possibilities.

Alexandra Galviz 17:23
I think you answered the question! I think when we do that, we definitely stop ourselves from having opportunities, because like you say, we're limiting ourselves to situations. The other thing is whether we're introvert or extrovert, one of our basic human needs is connection. And if we decide to pull ourselves away from people, because we prefer being on our own, that's great. You'll have the enjoyment of that. But actually, fundamentally, we also need to connect and it might not necessarily be 'let me disconnect from everyone,' but you need that interaction. And I think I've definitely learnt that a lot very recently in two things. One is that this year - my partner's also an introvert - and we decided to spend Christmas just the two of us together. And in my mind, I was like, great, you know, it's not going to be lots of people, it's not going to be rowdy, family, etc. And I actually miss having people around, I think that's one of them. And the second one is I obviously work for myself, and I work a lot from home. And that means that I don't interact with people on a daily basis quite regularly. And again, that was something that I recently identified - I may actually get a one day a week job in an office for the sake of interacting with people on a more frequent basis. Or another alternative of that, that requires me to be around people or finding solutions to being around people more often, because what I've realised is actually I do miss having people around and joking around with people and having fun and doing something a bit different. And I don't think that that's just me. I think that any human needs to interact with other humans on a regular basis! That's also how we grow. That's also how we learn. It's how we develop in good and bad - is being around other people. So I definitely think that we stop ourselves from progressing if we just go full on hermit. And it's very easy to do as an introvert, I can assure you!

Jeremy Cline 19:17
How would you convince someone who believes that all they can do is basically be a hermit, that ultimately that's not going to be good for them?

Alexandra Galviz 19:27
Baby steps. A really good example of this, and this is where I get asked to speak a lot about introversion - is I was part of a kind of networking movement slash community. almost a few months after I left my corporate job about June 2017. I was meeting my LinkedIn connections offline on a one to one basis because I wanted to meet people and I missed interacting with people and I wanted to kind of build those relationships whilst I was starting out. A lot of those people became friends, partners and business partners, clients, etc. And I really enjoyed that. And for me it was comfortable because it wasn't a one to one basis. So I would say find what's comfortable first. And then the next thing I saw was this woman called Anna McAfee based out in Coffs Harbour outside of Sydney - started doing the same thing, but in a group setting. And I got in touch with her and I said, you know, we've chatted a few times over some of the content that I've created, or she's created. And I said, what is it that you're doing? And she said, Oh, I'm just encouraging people to meet offline and network and get to know each other, not business basis, just kind of mingling after work over a drink. And I said, Oh, my God, that's a great idea. I'd love to do it. She put a hashtag LinkedIn local, and I did the same thing. And we both kind of fed back what was working, what wasn't working. And interestingly, she's an introvert. And we both decided to do these events. And we had another two guys join us. And before we knew it, loads of people were asking us how do we create these communities and events. And the idea was, you couldn't pitch, you couldn't sell anything, you only got to know the people behind the profiles. We encourage people to not ask others what they do for a living and ask them something else. So it was very geared towards meet the people behind the profile and connect with the individual versus the title or the company they represent. And we encourage people to be authentic and leave the door at the mask. And before we knew we grew this community movement networking thing into 90 countries in over 1000 cities. And this is like a bunch of introverts, basically, that created these communities for introverts and people - especially when people see me on stage and especially when they hear me - the fact that I was a founding member of this networking movement, they're like, it's crazy that you're an introvert. And for me, it's not really if you think about it, because we were creating spaces that people could connect on individual levels, or they could go out and connect with bigger groups and it was a safe environment and it wasn't to do with work. And I think that's why we got tonnes of messages from introverts saying, finally, something I feel comfortable going to! That was my progression - I was that person in the networking event in the corner, staring into my glass of wine, being awkward and not knowing who to talk about, and then progressing into meeting people on a one to one basis and then progressing into going to these events with larger groups and then hosting my own events, and then travelling around the world speaking at these events. I'm definitely proof that is possible, and it's also worthwhile. I recently wrote an article on Friday that was very kind of open and vulnerable about some difficulties I've had last year, and the amount of people that reached out to me through the LinkedIn local community and friends and people that I'd met all around the world over the last few years is amazing. It makes you feel like you're not alone. And I think whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, that's a feeling that's felt around the world.

Jeremy Cline 22:50
So going back to your baby steps, I'm just kind of going back to my hermit in the cubicle. What's the first thing that they can do? What's the first baby step they can do that kind of makes them realise - perhaps it's a question of realisation - that getting out of their cubicle isn't just something that is beneficial, and it's not hard to do, but it's something that's within them.

Alexandra Galviz 23:13
In terms of how would they do that?

Jeremy Cline 23:15
Yeah, I mean, say as a first step, I come up to you and say, when I go into work at nine o'clock in the morning, I go straight into my cubicle, I put my headphones on, I never talk to anyone, sit on my own in the canteen for lunch, and then at five o'clock I go home and I say goodnight to people. And maybe I've recognised that I don't actually like that, but I'm not quite sure what the best thing to do about it is. So what's the first step I should do?

Alexandra Galviz 23:37
Go and speak to someone. Just one person. Approach them on a break or at lunch - tea and coffee breaks in the kitchen will always have one or two people kind of doing the same thing, and it's only natural that people will be there and want to have a chat. You don't know them, introduce yourself. I think it's definitely easier to kind of go for that one on one versus like if two people are talking and interrupting a conversation. I also am conscious that introverts don't like small talk. So whilst I'm saying this that's kind of in my mind, there's nothing that annoys me more than, oh, how was your weekend? Oh it was great, how was yours? Oh, it was great. Oh, the weather's terrible today, isn't it? There's more to life! Another one is someone's reading a book - what are you reading? That's already a much more kind of deep topic to go into versus - obviously you might be interrupting them! - but it's a lot more kind of interesting than how's the weather today?

Jeremy Cline 24:30
Or even that you know, How's the weather? 'Oh, yeah, no, I got caught in the rain'. 'Oh right, so where do you come in from?' 'Oh right I used to live...' - just that sort of conversation can really, it can take you places. I think it's always particularly for networking things - I hardly ever want to talk about what someone does. I mean you inevitably do tend to end up talking about what someone does, but if you start with different topics, it's a heck of a lot more interesting and you're likely to get much further.

Alexandra Galviz 24:55
Yeah, and I definitely think having two or three questions that are not work related. That you can always know that you can go back to and ask people is always good. Especially when I'm teaching about networking and building relationships, I always say to people prepare what you want to ask people, because it will take away a little bit of that fear of starting to ask them in the first place.

Jeremy Cline 25:16
Alex, thank you so much. Where do you sort of see your future in that business going at the moment? Do you have a five year plan, a 10 year plan? If not absolutely fine. Where do you think the future is going for you?

Alexandra Galviz 25:29
No, as I said, my relationship with goals is very different now! There are definitely things I'd like to do. Like I'd love to write a book and do a TED talk, but I'm definitely in no rush to do either of those two, and there is no timeline or deadline to do them. But apart from that, it's just growing what I do and continuing to help people really.

Jeremy Cline 25:48
Do you have a particular book or resource, something which you can share, something which has either helped you or which you recommend to others quite regularly?

Alexandra Galviz 25:57
So the two is - for the introverts that are listening - the two things that I completely fell in love with and helped me massively was watching Susan Cain's 'Quiet' TED Talk, which is specifically about introversion and how to make the most out of your introverted nature. That was fantastic. And for those that have a bit more time and want to dig into it a little bit more, her book Quiet goes into it in a lot more depth and is backed a lot by kind of research and science. And what I learned from that book is realising that actually, there is a lot of power in being an introvert and often because in society, we favouritise and kind of champion the extrovert, often us introverts forget that actually we have a lot to bring to the table. And I learned a lot of that through her book, so I would highly recommend that. And then in terms of more recently, and this isn't any sort of business book, but one of my favourite books this year is Charlie Mackesy, he wrote a book called The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse. And it is a stunning, visually stunning book, and it has the most beautiful messages in it. And I kind of went a bit crazy at Christmas and bought 10 copies and gave them to all of my friends and clients and family. So I would highly recommend anyone to read that for children or adults.

Jeremy Cline 27:16
Brilliant. I will link to both of those in the show notes. Alex, where can people find you if they want to contact you?

Alexandra Galviz 27:22
Yeah, my LinkedIn profile or my LinkedIn company page, which is Authentic Alex.

Jeremy Cline 27:28
I will link to that in the show notes as well. Alex, thank you so much. It's been a really interesting conversation and good luck with the business.

Alexandra Galviz 27:36
Thanks for having me Jeremy.

Jeremy Cline 27:38
Okay, hope you enjoyed that interview with Authentic Alex, Alexandra Galviz. I was particularly interested in what Alex was saying about being an introvert and the fact that it's not necessarily the same as being shy and also how everyone needs social interaction whether you identify as an introvert or an extrovert and it's just if you're an introvert, then it happens to drain your energy. We also talked about there being a real danger if you impose limits on yourself, especially when it comes to interacting with others and what you can do to overcome that. Alex mentioned some great resources and you'll find the links to all those on the show notes page and they're at changeworklife.com/34. If you want to check out the resources previous guests have mentioned, then if you go to changeworklife.com/resources, you'll find a list of everything that people have recommended. And on that page, you can also link back to the episode so you can see the context in which the guests recommended the particular resource. I'm conscious that 30 plus episodes in, the list of resources is getting perhaps a little bit long. Later on this year I'm going to narrow down and produce a list of my top resources. But in the meantime, have a look at the existing page and see what looks like it's of interest to you. Now if you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you might remember episode five featured Ali Temple who is an absolutely amazing career coach - and its worth listening to that episode just anyway because he's so fantastic - but you might remember that he actually started out in the circus, and next week's guest didn't just run away to join the circus. She went one step further and has actually started a circus school. It's a really interesting interview. So do come back next week and I can't wait to see you then. Cheers. Bye.

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