Episode 9: Think 56 is too old to start a new career? From IT to hypnotherapy – with Adrian Muxlow

Episode 9: Think 56 is too old to start a new career? From IT to hypnotherapy - with Adrian Muxlow

Jeremy Cline
When you found out you're going to be made redundant. How did that make you feel?

Adrian Muxlow
I was the only one that walked out of that office with a big cheesy grin on his face. It was touch and go, I wasn't sure I was going to be one of the selected if you like...

Jeremy Cline
This is Adrian Muxlow, and if you think that 56 is too old for a complete change of career and to start your own business, then you need to listen to what Adrian has to say. I'm Jeremy Cline. And this is Change Work Life.

Hello, and welcome to Change Work Life. The show that's all about beating those Sunday evening blues. My guest this week is Adrian Muxlow, Adrian spent 20 years in IT working for a big bank but now has a hypnotherapy practice. He's a hypnotherapist with his own practice. Let's go straight to the interview and find out how he got there. Hi, Adrian, welcome to the podcast.

Adrian Muxlow
Good morning.

Jeremy Cline
Adrian, could you first tell us before we dive into a bit about how you've got to where you are, what it is that you now do?

Adrian Muxlow
I'm a hypnotherapist, and I help people, mainly my main issue is with weight control but I also deal a lot with anxiety in all age groups. There seems to be an anxious world out there and a lot of people needing help. That's what I do mainly, I'm a hypnotherapist helping people with all sorts of different issues.

Jeremy Cline
And how long have you been doing that for?

Adrian Muxlow
I've been qualified now for just over two years, two and a half years. I started off initially working part time, I was still full time employed. And more recently, in the last sort of 18 months, I've got a full time practice.

Jeremy Cline
Okay, so you've mentioned how you've transitioned into it. So can you tell us a bit about what it was that you did before you changed? I think I'm right in saying that you were in IT, is that right?

Adrian Muxlow
I was. Well when I left school, I joined the police force came down to London, when I was 19. I did five years in the Met and decided that wasn't for me, I wasn't happy with shift work and the way things were going just wasn't working out. So I had an interest in IT, I got myself a Sinclair Spectrum, started teaching myself how to programme. And I found myself suddenly with such an interest in all of that in IT, and how it all worked and I enrolled on a course at City University for business programming. And I came through that, and I walked straight into a job with Northwest Thames Regional Health Authority. And I never really looked back from there. I started off as a programmer, and have been through all of that in that I ended up being an IT Support Manager at an American bank in Canary Wharf.

Jeremy Cline
And so talk a bit about going from the police to IT. First of all, what was it about IT that made you think, okay, I'll give that a go?

Adrian Muxlow
It was all taking off wasn't it. At school there wasn't really anything. computerised it was, you know, back in the 80s, or late 70s, really. But it was just amazing, all these consoles at home. And that was when gaming was just starting and the birth of gaming if you like, and I just found it intriguing how you could do all of these things just by typing a few basic words on a keyboard. I just found it, you know, just so interesting. But that's, you know, horses for courses I suppose. I wanted to know how it all ticked.

Jeremy Cline
So you said you started out as a programmer. And so was that always your main focus when you said you kind of ended up as more a manager? So how did you transition to your IT career?

Adrian Muxlow
Yeah, most of most of my time has been as a programmer, with sort of team lead roles intermingled with that as time moves on. Gradually, the youngsters come through with their newfangled skills, and us oldies get left behind. So management's always that next step, if you want to stay in that IT industry. And that's just where I ended up going. Companies don't want to lose all that experience, but they realise that, you know, the youngsters are just so much better with the new technologies - that's just genuinely the way it works out. So really, the last 10 years or so I was, I've been a manager, or had been a manager.

Jeremy Cline
So what makes you say that? Why is it that there's this perception that the youngsters are better with the technology? I mean, what makes them able to do things that the oldies, if you'll forgive the expression, what makes them able to do things the oldies can't?

Adrian Muxlow
Its more of a perception of old dogs, new tricks. I don't necessarily agree that it's true. But it's very hard when you're working in an industry and your nose is to the grindstone, and you're focused on what you're doing, to pick up those new skills. So with youngsters coming through learning that through school and universities, they're coming into the workplace with that. So with that knowledge, if you like. So you're there, and what they can pick up from you is your experience and business knowledge.

Jeremy Cline
So did you find that the companies you're working for, weren't really interested in bringing their existing employees up to speed and all that, so you know, sending them back to school, or college or whatever, to learn all these new things, in conjunction with the experience because that seems to me sort of the logical thing to do?

Adrian Muxlow
Yes, it does seem the logical thing to do. But it very rarely happens. It's very difficult to get companies to pay for all that training, and then put you in on a, you know, a very expensive, valuable project with minimal skills. So they're looking to buy in experience all the time. So if you can go out and get experience somewhere, then come back, or you're a youngster coming through college, and you get your first trainee jobs and then you get poached and picked up - you know they cherry pick the best people - and that's how that all seems to work. Very rarely do you get a chance to hone new skills to a level where you can be useful when you're already working in a company.

Jeremy Cline
So did that create a kind of tension between those who are doing the management, but who didn't have these new skills and those who had the new skills, and were being managed by someone who you know, who hadn't learned the latest programming languages or techniques or whatever?

Adrian Muxlow
Well, everywhere I've worked, there's always been some major project ongoing, where they're trying to replace old legacy systems. And a lot of those legacy systems are still there, because they've not actually managed to do that, amazingly enough. We're talking about writing programmes in cobol, which is common business oriented language, which was one of the original business programming languages, and some of that stuff's still around - so it has longevity!

Jeremy Cline
And so did you in your later role, did that involve managing people who were learning all the new languages, and I'm going to display my ignorance by saying I think java or whatever?

Adrian Muxlow
Yeah. Yeah, very much so. In fact, the latter part of that part of my career was managing offshore teams in India. Most of my last team were in India. I rarely saw them, it was all phone calls.

Jeremy Cline
Okay, that's really interesting, actually. Presumably that was predominantly as an efficiency saving, cost saving measure.

Adrian Muxlow
Yes, yeah.

Jeremy Cline
How did managing a remote team then compare with managing a team that you shared an office with?

Adrian Muxlow
The way that worked is we had local people on site locally in the bank. So one or two people within the team that would be the link back to the offshore team. But it would be - it was a case of really having to get to know them, understanding their culture, as difficult as that was. But trying to maintain stability within that team, so that you weren't constantly getting new faces all the time, or new people in the team, which made that job even harder. So it was very important to try and create the stability in the offshore side of things. But it was good, it worked. You know, that's why it's still happening now.

Jeremy Cline
And so did you have any particular tips or tricks that you employed to maintain that stability?

Adrian Muxlow
Well, what the company did - the offshore company - was regularly send people over to London, to work with us for two or three months, and then they'd go back and then someone else would come over. So there was - that's key, I think - you get to know people, you get to understand where people's strengths are, who's good at what, and when you can use them, because quite a lot of my work was on the support side, out of hours overnight, because they would be always available. I would be called up and kind of woken up in the middle of the night, and it was imperative that you know who it is, that's going to be working with you because you need to know you've got the right person on the phone.

Jeremy Cline
And was all this at a time when there was a lot of this going on, a lot of remote working, or was this something sort of quite new? I mean, did you have you know - there's so much remote working that goes on these days - did you have the sorts of systems and tools available to you things like Slack and Trello and all those things that enables teams to work remotely?

Adrian Muxlow
Yes, we did. We didn't have those particular tools. But we had yes, we had a set up the worked pretty well yeah.

Jeremy Cline
So you started out as a programmer, then you go more into the management side, you're managing these offshore teams, you're in IT for I think it was 25 years you said?

Adrian Muxlow
Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Cline
So when did you start to think that you needed to do something else and possibly start transitioning into something else?

Adrian Muxlow
I didn't. That's not the way it worked out. What happened first was I was quite a heavy smoker back in the day, and I wanted to give up smoking, but I knew I needed a helping hand with that. And a local hypnotherapist to here where I live, was recommended to me, I got in touch with her, and I stopped smoking overnight, just like that.

Jeremy Cline
Wow.

Adrian Muxlow
And I was just blown away by that. So I kept in touch with her. And through various conversations, you know, investigated where she did her training, what her academic background was, if you like to get her qualifications, and I ended up following in her footsteps really, exactly the same route through a college that was linked with the University of West London. It took me nearly two years of part time study to get a postgraduate certificate. And so I was qualified. And at that point, I decided - and there was probably a nudge in that direction, because I was getting really fed up with being woken up in the middle of the night, you know, being on call 24/7. I just thought I can't keep doing this, it will be the death of me. I need to do something else. But I had no idea what that something else was going to be aside from winning the lottery. [Laughs]. But then this all happened. And you just have to follow that, don't you? A new path opened up in front of me. And the opportunity was there.

Jeremy Cline
Talking about wanting to change, not wanting to be on call, all that sort of thing. Do you think that even if you hadn't discovered hypnotherapy that you probably would have made a change of some description?

Adrian Muxlow
I don't know, to be honest, it's a very difficult question. I wanted to, and I think that desire would have been enough to make me look for something else eventually. Yes.

Jeremy Cline
And so and you said, you were amazed by the results of hypnotherapy. Did you go into it with a certain amount of scepticism when someone recommended it? Or did you go in quite sort of thinking yeah, I've seen that it works for other people, I think it probably will work for me?

Adrian Muxlow
I'd seen it work, help other people. I wasn't really fully aware of the scope of issues that you can help with. People often think, you know, helps with stop smoking or you know, that's usually the first thing people think of. But that's really all I was thinking I had no idea what it was, how it worked, what it was going to feel like. But I'm quite open-minded when it comes to things like that. So it's a case of just sitting in the chair and just going with the flow, which is why did.

Jeremy Cline
There's quite a big gap between having something like that for yourself, and then deciding that actually, you want to learn more about it, qualify as a practitioner of it. You know, I mean, people might go to see a physio to help with some particular pain or problem and it solves that pain or problem. But that doesn't mean that they're going to then go and train as a physio themselves. So where did that additional motivation come from, for you actually to want to learn to practice this yourself?

Adrian Muxlow
I've always had an interest with things to do with the mind, your brain, how the body works, how it all hangs together. And I remember, back when I was about 13 - in fact I've met up with this friend recently and he remembers exactly the same moment - I somehow got my hands on a How to Hypnotise People book. [Laughs]. And we sat in his garden one summer afternoon, and I was trying to hypnotise him. It didn't work, or we didn't get anywhere - we had no idea what we were doing. But I never forget that. And it's been in the back of my mind, if you like, something that is of interest. The first thing I did was, when I contacted the college, they were running a foundation course which was like a three month introduction to the world of hypnotherapy. So as a first step, I needed to do that, to get enough academic points to be able to do the postgraduate certificate if I don't have a degree myself. So that's what I did. And that opened my eyes really as to what it is, how it works, what it can be used for. And I had a discussion with my wife, I thought I'd really like to do this, but it's going to cost us a lot of money. But it's something I've really wanted to follow through, I'd been bitten by that bug the same as I was 25 years before with the IT, programming bug.

Jeremy Cline
Okay, so when you started looking into doing the foundation course, and becoming qualified, and you were still doing your IT job, were you thinking in those terms that this was now going to replace what you were doing?

Adrian Muxlow
That's when I started to think I can do this. I know. It's not a gift. It's a tool kit, and your experience guides you as to where to use what tools and when to help people. So and it's just fascinating, to be able to see people change quickly and easily towards the goals that they want to achieve. And I just love it. Love it. It's one of those things, people always like 'Blimey, you've found your calling haven't you!' I had a GP who said that - I was just ranting on and on and on about 'I can do this. I can help people with this. Have you got patients that...' I have to shut my after shut myself up sometimes. Look, I'm ranting on now!

Jeremy Cline
You see this as a calling now?

Adrian Muxlow
Yeah, definitely. I wish I'd done this years ago. I really do. I sometimes I regret now that, you know, I'm 56. Or I think I wish I had another 20 years, I wish I was in my 30s where I could - there's so much to learn. There's so much out there. And there's so much research going on now. And it's much more widely accepted as a complementary therapy these days. And I can see that getting bigger and bigger. And I want to be part of that.

Jeremy Cline
I'm curious, about what you said then - so you said you're 56 and you want to be doing this for another20 years?

Adrian Muxlow
Well, yeah, on top of what I've got left. So I wish I could have the main part of my life doing this because if you know, we all die one day. And at 56 I think well, maybe I've got hopefully 20 or 30 years left in me. But I'd like to think that was 50 years, you know, never enough! I wish I was younger. I wish I'd done it years ago, I suppose is the phrase I'm looking for.

Jeremy Cline
And that said, did you have any particular fears or anxieties about transitioning from something that you had done for 25 years and had lots of experience and very well respected in, into this brave new subject that you'd had an interest in?

Adrian Muxlow
Yeah.

Jeremy Cline
But looking at making it your living?

Adrian Muxlow
Yeah. Yes, for sure. Initially, I set about reducing my working week. I reduced my week down to a four day working week with the bank. So they gave me Fridays and Saturdays where I could start my practice, if you like, part time. And the more I did that, the more it made me realise that I really wanted to do this. It was just, you know, it was just fantastic to be able to help people. And I was then starting to think how on earth can I make that transition? How am I going to be able to carry on paying the bills while I build the business up for instance, that's the biggest worry. In the end, that decision was made for me.

Jeremy Cline
So how do you mean that decision?

Adrian Muxlow
I was made redundant. My my job was outsourced.

Jeremy Cline
When you found out you're going to be made redundant, how did that make you feel?

Adrian Muxlow
I was the only one that walked out of that office with a big cheesy grin on his face. It was touch and go. I wasn't sure I was going to be one of the selected if you like, I wasn't sure. I wanted it. At that point, I'd made a decision that if it was me, then I knew what I was going to do. Because I had that option I thought it only fair that I tell people that - if you're going to throw someone into the unknown, I've got something that I can go and do other people haven't. But then that's not the way they make those decisions. Is it?

Jeremy Cline
So this wasn't a sort of voluntary sort of situation where you could...?

Adrian Muxlow
No. So the decision then was do I make a go of this, or do I look for another IT role. And other people that were in the same situation as I ended up in have now got other jobs in IT. So the opportunity was there and probably still is. But I'm so glad I didn't go down that path.

Jeremy Cline
And what were other people saying at that time when you were being made redundant? Were other people saying 'Oh no you should definitely go and do your hypnotherapy and start the business' or were people saying, 'Oh, come on Adrian, I mean, yes it's all very good. But come on you've been in IT for 25 years, why on earth would you want to change now?'

Adrian Muxlow
Yeah. Not to my face. I think people were surprised... I mean, I'd openly spoken to people about what I was studying in my own time and so they knew my interest in it. So they just wished me luck at the end of the day.

Jeremy Cline
And what about internally? Did you ever think redundancy that is a sign - that is a sign that actually I really should have start pursuing this all in, wholeheartedly doing this? Or did you think I've now got an opportunity, but I'm not sure if I want to take it?

Adrian Muxlow
No. Once I had spoken with my wife, and she was like, 'No, definitely go for it, it's what you want to do'. I gave myself a year if you like to have a go at this, prove it would work. And then I would have to start thinking about if it didn't work, I would have to start making a decision. But there's a twist at the end of this story!

Jeremy Cline
Okay, go on.

Adrian Muxlow
Just recently, I've been given the opportunity to run a practice in the building where the bank I used to work is in Canary Wharf. So I've opened up that and I'm working just Mondays in the basement, I have a therapy room in the basement, working for the - well, basically in the in the same building as the bank - and my clients there are now people I used to work with in the bank.

Jeremy Cline
And how did that arise?

Adrian Muxlow
I offered to do a presentation for them. They had a wellness and wellbeing week for one section of the business back in February. And I offered to do them an hour's talk on stress, and tricks and tools to help combat stress in the workplace. And they said yeah, great, fine come along. So I did that for them one Tuesday morning in February. And while I was there, I bumped into the landlord of the actual office block, and he's the manager there, you know the buildings manager, and he said Look, I want to show you something. So he took me downstairs and said I'm building these two rooms and I thought okay you know, it was a bit of a mystery as to why he was doing this. But anyway, it was his belief that this type of thing should be on offer to the workers in that building. And maybe it'll spread to other buildings. I mean, we absolutely should do. It's just rocketed since I started - so these two rooms, one's a yoga and sort of stretch and personal training room so it's slightly bigger and then there's a one on one therapy room, which is the one I use. And it's rammed - I'm so busy. I'm only there on Mondays. And now I'm looking at doing two days a week there now because there's just so many people that want to come and see me.

Jeremy Cline
And this includes your former colleagues?

Adrian Muxlow
Yes. Which must be weird, because I've got a pop-up banner that's in the foyer. And so that's there all the time. So they must come into work and see my face every morning and wonder 'what the hell is he doing now!' But yeah, that's the twist. I never saw that coming.

Jeremy Cline
But I guess you must have, well you must not have burned any bridges them with the bank - you stayed in contact with people. So I mean, how did you become aware of this wellness event? And how did they - who contacted who in that?

Adrian Muxlow
Someone told me about the event that was happening, I forget. But so I just emailed individuals who I remembered from when I worked there and said look, I'm happy to come and do an hour's presentation to help people with you know stress in the workplace, and they just emailed me back and said yeah brilliant - we'll let you know the exact date we're doing it. And so it was really as easy as that - there wasn't much to it. A bit of an anxious moment I think, just before I started the talk, but I think people got a lot from it. I think there was some credibility on my part gained there as well I think.

Jeremy Cline
Was there any part of you that thought at that point no, it's not, it's not for me, why are they going to listen to me, I've only just started this, I don't really have any, let's just say credibility in the field?

Adrian Muxlow
Well, you know, you have to remain balanced and negative thoughts do creep in. But you have to push those to one side and just keep moving forward. You can't let those eat away at you. And that's what I help other people with - people that allow that negativity to overwhelm them. That develops into anxiety and can lead to depression and all sorts if you just give up because you lose that self-esteem.

Jeremy Cline
Absolutely, absolutely. What external help have you had, in terms of setting this up if any? I mean, you've mentioned that your wife has been extremely supportive in this but going from working for a bank in the IT team to effectively starting your own business - and presumably there's lots of other business side to it, not just the the actual practising side to it - so have you had any coaching, mentoring, anything like that, that's really sort of helped you to, to start your practice and develop your practice?

Adrian Muxlow
Yes, I have. I contacted again - through the hypnotherapist I went to see - I don't know how I knew she was linked... Anyway there's a lady called Sheila Granger. She's a hypnotherapist in Hull. She lives just outside Hull. And she pioneered the virtual gastric band programme, which is something that I'm licenced to use and I help a lot of people with, which is a weight control programme. And she mentored me for a year. Obviously, I had to pay her - she was more more than happy to help, so it was a minimal fee, really, for mentorship, but she showed me the ropes as far as this is what you need to do. You can't just sit there, people won't come and find you. They have to know you're there. And that's critical for any business. You know, the marketing side, it's not just advertising. It is get your face out there. People need to see you, people need to know what you do, and see you doing it.

Jeremy Cline
And so talk through how did you identify that mentoring was going to get you to where you wanted to get to quicker?

Adrian Muxlow
Because she is very successful. And you know, by talking to her and looking at what knowledge she was able to pass back to me as well - okay look, I need this, I don't know how to do this at the moment, how did you do this, basically. Show me what you've done to make yourself so successful. And the other hypnotherapist is busy, so busy. She's obviously followed the same path. So that's where that credibility came from if you like, and she pushed me to, to do all sorts, and I'll show you what the final product was - this book.

Jeremy Cline
I might have to take a screenshot of that and put it on the show!

Adrian Muxlow
Yeah, I can send you a book cover. I've got a copy of this. So with her guidance that book's about to be published on Amazon Kindle paperback.

Jeremy Cline
Fantastic.

Adrian Muxlow
There's some audio downloads that I've recorded in a local recording studio. Yeah. That's really exciting. So this is to help with type two diabetes.

Jeremy Cline
This is really a case of identifying someone who was already where you wanted to get to and asking them how they got there.

Adrian Muxlow
Yeah.

Jeremy Cline
Which I think I think other people don't do actually. It's you know, people tend to ask people they know, they ask their friends and family oh yeah what do you think about that? And they're happy to give advice, even though they might not know anything about it, but actually reaching out to someone that you've identified as being - Yeah, this person does what I want to do.

Adrian Muxlow
Yeah.

Jeremy Cline
I don't think people do that enough.

Adrian Muxlow
No, and it was so important. You can be dabbling around in the shallows for a long time if you don't get that push. And there's one other person whose network I got involved with is an American hypnotherapist called Jason Linett, and he's got a website, which has an immense amount of information on it called Work Smart Hypnosis. And so I saw him when he came to Heathrow a couple of years ago. And he was over in the UK for a while. But he ran a weekend seminar at Heathrow, so I went to meet him there and picked up a lot of tips just in that one weekend. So with the information that he's got, and what Sheila was showing me - that's where I am now. And the one other thing you absolutely must do if you're looking to set up your own business, is networking, business networking. I'm a member of BNI, Business Networking International. And it's the best thing I've done. I was pushed towards doing it. I've heard negative reviews of what BNI is and what it isn't and what it can do for you. And, you know, I simply hadn't followed that through because of the negative things I'd heard. But I joined, and I've been given the honour of being president this year for the next 12 months. And I've only been a member there for eight months or so. And, yeah, one of the biggest and best things I've done. I get a lot of work through business networking.

Jeremy Cline
And so what about the future? How long are you going to do this for? Where's where do you see this going?

Adrian Muxlow
Oh, this will be something that I'll carry on doing into retirement. Because it's just, there's so much to learn. This is why I said I wish I had more time on this planet. But I've got I've got a library of books - and you can only read so much in a day. But there's just so much information out there now, and it's so interesting. And there's a whole world of - Facebook's fantastic with various groups sharing information. I had, you know, typically with 'I had this sort of client yesterday, I tried this or this, and this works so well'. 'Oh, really - okay'. So little tips and things to help people and, you know, different personality types and how they respond to different approaches - even down to that level.

Jeremy Cline
And when you say you're going to do this until retirement, I mean, do you have a plan for okay, I'm going to do this until this age, and then I'm going to stop? Or is it that you're going to do this basically for as long as you can?

Adrian Muxlow
Yeah, for as long as I can. It's not stressful, it's talking therapy, it's words, it really just boils down to words. And it's how you say them when you say them, and who you say them to. And it's that powerful. And you can do that in sitting down, you can do that, you know, whatever age you are - as long as you have your mental faculties.

Jeremy Cline
Cool. So you mentioned a couple of the people who have helped you - the mentors and the Work Smart Hypnosis - are there any other resources that the listeners might find useful in terms of your transition, you know, any books or just you know, a quote that you've had, you know, stuck to your wall or anything that's, that's really helped you with this transition?

Adrian Muxlow
Well, it's interesting that the college that I went through - the London College of Clinical Hypnosis, LCCH, are still going strong. They have been round for 20, 25, 30 years. A lot of well known hypnotherapists have come through that college. They've recently changed - I was the last intake that they were able to put people through the postgraduate certificate as an academic qualification. They broke the links with University of West London and they now run their own diploma, which I think is probably an easier approach - it's much more affordable in that you can do modules as and when you can afford them, or you've got the time to do them or, and you build up your portfolio of knowledge if you like in your own time. And that's probably an easier way to do things, and probably a better way. So I would recommend if someone wants to get into hypnotherapy, and you know - why not - it's really interesting if you have that interest, and there's a lot of people out there that need help. And it's a great thing to be able to help them with. There's nothing wrong with London College, with LCCH at all. And I'm sure you'll come out of there with as much knowledge as you need to start out on your own.

Jeremy Cline
Okay, so if people want to get hold of you and find out a bit more about what you do, where can they find you?

Adrian Muxlow
My website, which is mindweave.co.uk. And I'm also on Facebook - people can contact me through there via messenger on Facebook. And something I'm going to be doing very soon is a messenger type chat link on my website, which will come through to my mobile phone, so if people want to chat to me anytime obviously reasonable time of day time - if I'm not in my office I could pick up communication that way.

Jeremy Cline
Fantastic. Okay. I'll include links to all of that in the show notes.

Adrian Muxlow
Thank you very much.

Jeremy Cline
Cool. Well, thank you so much. This has been really, really interesting, and not an area I knew anything about. It's been great talking to you about it and so thank you very much and good luck with it!

Adrian Muxlow
Thank you.

Jeremy Cline
Aside from Adrian's obvious enthusiasm for hypnotherapy, one of the things that really came over strongly was that Adrian wished he'd made this change earlier. But what's most important is that he still did make the change. He didn't fall into the trap of thinking that it was too late, it wasn't worth it. Adrian didn't think that he'd got so far down the path aged 56 that he may as well just stick it out and mark time until retirement. It's that old Chinese proverb. The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, the second best time is now and I really hope that Adrian's inspired you that wherever you are on your career journey, it's never too late to change. As always, you'll find show notes and links to all the resources that we mentioned on the website this week. You'll find them at changeworklife.com/9 that's number 9 for episode nine. If you haven't already, please do leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you go to get your podcasts. They really do help people find the podcast and if it's been helpful for you, hopefully it's going to be helpful for other people as well. We've got another great interview next week and I can't wait to see you then. Cheers. Bye.