Episode 46: The journey to online tutoring – with Annie Dehaney-Steven

Episode 46: The journey to online tutoring - with Annie Dehaney-Steven

Jeremy Cline 0:00
I've interviewed a couple of people who've been at the very start of their career change and their entrepreneurial journey, and I thought it was about time that I caught up with them and found out how it's all been going. Have their plans worked out the way they intended? What changes have they made? Have they decided to do something completely different? Well, that's what we're going to find out in this interview. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work Life.

Jeremy Cline 0:38
Hello and welcome to Change Work Life, the podcast that's all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. I'm really pleased to have back on the show this week Annie-Dehaney Steven, who you may remember I interviewed back in Episode Four. And in that episode, Annie was telling us about her plans to start an online tutoring business, and I asked her back to find out how she's been getting on and what's been happening since then. So, Annie, welcome back to the podcast.

Annie Dehaney-Steven 1:06
Thank you for having me, Jeremy.

Jeremy Cline 1:08
So let's just set the scene and recap on what we were talking about last time. And also let's just get the dates fixed because even though your interview was published in October 2019, it was actually in May 2019 that we first spoke. We're now beginning of June 2020. So it's just over a year since we spoke about your plans to launch your online tutoring business, which I think was going to be called My Learning Curve. It was the start of the summer in 2019. You I think had got your lead magnets and everything set up and you were about to go ahead and launch with the online tutoring. Now obviously, at the time that we're recording now, we are in this Coronavirus mess. We are kind of coming out of lockdown. We don't really know what's going to happen, but I'm sure that that's made things a little bit more interesting in terms of what's been going on! But why don't we start by going back to the time that we last spoke, back to May 2019, and pick up the story from there - what happened over the next weeks and months?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 2:09
Right. Well, very soon after we spoke, I got confirmation that I'd be starting a masters course, at Goldsmiths, University of London. I took the course, and I've been doing it since September, and I really love it, but it did push My Learning Curve to one side. So I carried on tutoring online, but not the volume I was planning on, but also I started teaching just science one day a week at Southwark College. I took the course, I talked one day a week and I carried on online tutoring, but not to the same extent. I'm doing a masters called Music, Mind and Brain, it's the psychology and neuroscience of music.

Jeremy Cline 2:52
Oh wow.

Annie Dehaney-Steven 2:53
And it's just wonderful. It is just wonderful. And I'm planning a project based on how music - whether music can help teenagers with maths - whether the presence of music can help teenagers in maths classes. I've used music in my classes for a long time, I want to see whether the beneficial effect I see is real or is some sort of an artefact. So that's what my project will be. And I was going to be doing that this summer. And of course that's finished because I don't have access to my classes at the student site I was going to use. So I'll be doing that hopefully over the winter, and until next spring. I've taken an interruption to studies. The coronavirus meant that my one day a week teaching job started to spread out over two to three days a week because I had to teach online and I had to rewrite everything and it isn't tutoring, it was teaching - so these students were students who had not done science. So I was teaching from scratch. I've had to take a leave of an interruption from university till next April. But the good thing about the coronavirus and tutoring is that I've decided to open up my tutoring to parents who want to help their children as well as to tutoring children. And the reason that's becoming important is that when I was at school, I was taught in a certain way. My father tried to help me with maths. He had been taught in a different way 30 years before, and I couldn't understand what he was trying to teach me. Every generation has different methods of doing things. I think a lot of parents struggle, because they remember the way they were taught. And they're finding it difficult to help their children.

Jeremy Cline 4:29
So this is about helping parents to help their children, given their different way of having been taught maths and different understanding?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 4:37
Yes, yes. Children are taught in such a different way. Teenagers are taught in such a different way to the way they were 20 years ago, and certainly 30 or 35 years ago. And so I've decided to add that to my offering.

Jeremy Cline 4:52
Is there such demand then from parents that they want to help their kids with their homework that they're really interested in doing it?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 4:58
Yes, and I think this crisis has made it really quite difficult for them. I speak to parents who say she showed me this piece of work she's got to do, it's been put on the Google Classroom or whatever the school is using, and she wants help and I don't know where to start. It is quite different. And also there is a bit of a crisis in adult numeracy. Something like I think it's 40% of adults say they would like to be able to feel more comfortable with maths and if you've suddenly - through no fault of your own - been plunged into a situation where you're trying to help teenagers. It's quite a difficult ask I think for parent, I would feel absolutely lost if my children were sent home from school for three months, and had language homework to do - if they had French to do I would run away. I wouldn't know where to start, and I would want somebody to help them with their French. But in a way you can't have a tutor in the house, and it can be very expensive if you have one to one sessions. But if you have small group sessions of adults doing the stuff their students or their children are doing. I would never have adults and children in the same groups, because I think they're different. I never teach teenagers and adults together if I can help it, they're an entirely different animal.

Jeremy Cline 6:19
At the risk of playing devil's advocate, aren't you kind of doing yourself out of a job there? You could be helping these kids out rather than getting the parents into a position where they can help them out.

Annie Dehaney-Steven 6:30
No, I'm not. What I'm doing is spreading my usefulness, because there are going to be parents who will speak to other parents. If you've got three children, they're at different stages in their schooling, and you're trying to help them - that's a big ask for any parent. And it's going to become worse once parents can go back to work but children, I think, will only be going to school in a very part time capacity for some time now, and they're going to have a lot of work to do at home. And I think that if parents can have an hour a week where they can be helped to understand a key basic technique that their children are using, that they can use with all their children, it's far easier for them. And it's far easier for me than teaching mixed groups of two teens, where sometimes get a family where you might have three children of different ages and they want them all tutored at the same time. That can be quite difficult. But if you're a parent, and you can give them some support with their work I think it's it's going to be useful. And there are so many families out there, I'd have to go some to run out of work, really.

Jeremy Cline 7:34
How are you going to position your marketing and how are you going to find these people and persuade them that they need you?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 7:43
I'm in contact with parents of children I've already tutored. I'm in contact with various social networks - mumsnet, that I'm going to be putting some stuff on. And I've discovered Instagram, which I never thought I wanted to, but actually it's quite interesting. I'm going to be using those outlets. But mainly, a lot of it is word of mouth. And with my tutoring, a lot of it has always been word of mouth. I tutor a child and that child's parents speak to another parent about me and I get that child. A lot of it I hope will be word of mouth. When I started last year, my idea was that I would offer group sessions mainly at times where it might be early afternoon in the UK, and it might be late evening elsewhere. And because you're online It doesn't matter when you do it, you know - there'll be someone in the world. And I still think that is possible. The stuff I'm hoping to tutor will cover bit by bit all the basics. This term, for instance, I'm going to be offering for parents mainly number systems, calculations, why we use the number system we use, standard form, things like that, because people do find them difficult. I do know of adults who can quite happily calculate with 234 digit numbers, you stick a decimal point in there, they've had it. It's not lack of ability, it's lack of confidence. And I think tutoring very often is a confidence building. People are scared of maths, which is a pity because it's a lovely thing.

Jeremy Cline 9:13
Yes, we talked last time about maths phobia. Going back to teaching one day a week, I recall when we spoke you were pretty much on the point of giving up teaching in a classroom setting anyway, so what led you to do this what was initially one day a week and is now various bits of days?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 9:31
I'd gone back to university so I wasn't earning any money at all. I did want some money. I had a bit of tutoring stuff coming in, but I wanted to spend most of my time studying. I thought this is the chance, this is my last chance to get this masters, and I was quite surprised at my age to get onto the course. It's quite a prestigious take, that course, so I decided I was going to put everything into it. It took a few weeks for me to realise that tutees I had, I didn't have quite enough - the ones I kept, I didn't have quite enough for my needs really. I took a job looking after a child after school for a few hours, and I thought, while I'm with the child, I help him with his homework. And then on the way there on the bus I can do some studying, on the way back I can do some studying, but the job was far bigger. It was a job with a wonderful, wonderful family, including a wonderful dog. But it involved going picking up the dog, walking two miles to pick the child up from school, walking back two miles with the child and the dog and then cooking and doing the laundry. And it was only three hours a night, three hours, three nights a week I think, but it just ate into my life. And then one day I went to visit a friend I'd been working with at Southwark College for a cup of coffee and we were sitting in the college cafe, talking. One of the heads of department came up to me and said, Annie, do you want to teach science one day a week? And I said yes. And so I ditched the nannying and I went back to Southwark just Tuesday - two classes on a Tuesday. Lovely, lovely job. Two classes of adults, all novices when it came to science, all doing GCSE combined science. And we had a lovely time. I really did enjoy it. I know I will never teach full time again. I'm far happier tutoring, but it was until March, it was a very, very lovely job. Once we went into lockdown I carried on until mid May. Of course, they can't take exams - carried on until mid May planning for them changed completely because when I teach in class, I stand up, I have my handouts, I stand up, do a short bit of teaching, go round, work with everyone individually, then we have a recap, bit of a test, then we go on to the next bit. That was impossible. I had, you know, 20 over every Tuesday afternoon, a couple of groups of 10 on Zoom. I couldn't check their work. Everything took a lot longer. Planning their work took a lot longer. It spread into a two or three day job. I had exams in May, but I had no time to do any revision. So I had to withdraw for the rest of this year.

Jeremy Cline 11:55
And that was your decision was it?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 11:56
Yeah. I don't know how people have coped with this lockdown, but I found the first six weeks, particularly, I couldn't even concentrate. So I would start to read a paper and I would read the first paragraph 12, 14 times and it wouldn't stick. I think it's because I'm quite extrovert. I'm used to getting out there. I like the hustle and bustle of everyday life. I'm quite happy to sit on a bus, reading a paper, taking notes. At home, it was just too quiet to be perfectly honest. Even with music, which is something I like to study with, I felt too restricted and rather anxious. I decided that I couldn't prepare at all. And all the time I did have, all the useful work I could do was for my science students, and that's because it would take me all week really, but I had to have a lesson ready for them on the Tuesday that was in a form that could be delivered through Google classroom, and I'd send them all the work on Google Classroom and then I would go through everything during the zoom but it was not easy. Tutoring is easier than teaching on Zoom.

Jeremy Cline 13:03
So how did that work in terms of quitting that job? Did they need to find a replacement or was the whole course suspended?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 13:11
No, the course came to an end. The GCSE students, they used to take their exams in May. So I was employed as an agency teacher from November to the end of the course. And so when they would have been taking their exams, we finished the course. They have no exams to take. So I haven't taught at all for the last three weeks.

Jeremy Cline 13:30
And so what was it like teaching adults, because I seem to remember you were mainly still teaching like 14, 16, 18 year olds before?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 13:36
Yes, well, mainly 16 up to 19 with some 14s. Adults are lovely. I had two classes and some of them were doing science classes that they had always wanted to do. Some of them want to go on to university this year, and they need a GCSE. They don't need the A-level in that particular course but they need the GCSE. And they were really committed and worked really hard. Some of them were a lot less committed. A couple dropped out round about December, but the ones I was left with, I think they all would have passed, and some of them would have done very, very well. And not all of them took to online teaching though. I probably last four or five, when we moved to Zoom. When you're learning something from scratch, there's nothing quite like someone coming around and explaining something to you. And it's just for you, you know - sitting down with you and going through a calculation or an idea or some interpretation. And I think they found it hard.

Jeremy Cline 14:32
It'll be very interesting to see whether there are any studies done about the effect of the move to online teaching, not just at adult level, but more generally. I know various teachers who have found it difficult and actually find online teaching more exhausting than teaching in person.

Annie Dehaney-Steven 14:53
I think if you have one person on the screen that's manageable. When you have more than one you find yourself trying to make eye contact with everybody at once. And I think it is exhausting, it's very tiring. You also are more aware that some of them are playing a computer game! Or have not turned on their video so you don't know whether they're there. I didn't have so much of that. I did have two students who while we were working online, had COVID-19 and one of them spent two lessons in her bed taking notes she had no camera on, and every now and then she she piped up, 'I'm still here. Could you repeat that?' because she was so ill, but she really wanted her GCSE. And we have graded according to their mocks, but we don't know what the exam boards are going to award. If she were to be taking the exams in May and June, I would say to her you're going to do really well, but because none of us know how the exam boards are going to react I don't know how she's going to do. I feel heartbroken for for some of them. Which is a pity.

Jeremy Cline 16:01
Yeah. So coming back to your tutoring plans - so where where are you at the moment and insofar as it's possible to plan for the next few months when we don't really know what's going to happen, what's your sort of current thinking?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 16:14
At the moment I've got some online tutor singletons in the pipeline. And I'm not going to start anything with them till the end of August. I'm going to take the summer off. I noticed when I was deciding to relaunch that I had made a mistake. And I did a trademark search on My Learning Curve and MLC Online and someone's nicked them, so I've had to change my name.

Jeremy Cline 16:40
Okay.

Annie Dehaney-Steven 16:42
And I'm setting up my website again. So we're now mathemajazz. You know, the mistake was such a rookie mistake. It was something that I was on the edge of doing last year and for some reason, I didn't trademark it. It takes a long time to trademark, but once you've started you can at least have trademark on your paperwork and protect yourself. So that was a mistake. But as I say a lot of my tutees come by word of mouth and at the moment, this year, I think it's going to continue to be like that. I'm relaunching my website and I'm rewriting for parents. The parents programme I'm thinking of, as well as online tutoring, I'm hoping to offer it as a standalone block that you buy, and then you teach yourself through it, because then you can always go back over it. So like a video and PowerPoint presentation that you buy lock stock and barrel, and then you work with it.

Jeremy Cline 17:40
Okay, so this is effectively offering video courses that you record once and then you can offer to people and then they will do them.

Annie Dehaney-Steven 17:48
Yeah, I mean, I expect that would be a very cost effective way of getting the material. I'm not sure how cost effective it's going to be to produce and that's mainly because of the encryption protection measures I'm going to have to take, but I'm still looking into that.

Jeremy Cline 18:04
So had you got as far as doing any kind of launching last time? You've got all this stuff in place. You're sort of rebranding internally, although your brand wasn't out there yet. But it's just a question now of putting everything with your new name on it, and then ready to go in the kind of way that you were a year ago?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 18:23
The university course took over. I just knew I had to give everything to it. And I had a few weekends where I didn't go to bed. So that took over, and because I'm going to be working on my study, I've got some work to do on my project during the summer. I'm hoping to get hold of some students even in very small groups. I need about 60 of them in the autumn and over the winter, and I must produce my project in April and I've got all my exams to do in May. This year I am going to be tutoring more as of August, September. Yeah, it's mainly an internal regrade and a proper launch. I'm still going to have word of mouth people, because actually they've been very good to me. It's been very good way of doing it. And it has meant that I've been quite full while I've needed to be. But to get out there a bit more and have some slightly larger groups would be quite nice.

Jeremy Cline 19:12
Having decided to put things on pause so that you could concentrate on the university course and still having effectively another year of that course left, why are you taking the decision that you're still going to go ahead with launching rather than kind of continue to give yourself that extra space. I mean, what sort of changed that's made you think yeah actually I can do them both?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 19:33
It isn't that I now think I can do them both. But I do know that neither needs to get too much in the way of the other. I think the university course I decided was so important and it is so important that I would give it everything. But I do need a little bit of something else, and working one day a week last year was quite nice. It was a nice break in the study week. My tutoring this year will probably be one or two days a week but they will be quite full days, I hope.

Jeremy Cline 20:02
Okay, so is the plan then that you will continue to study, do one or two days a week of tutoring. And then when it comes to the other stuff, so the online videos and that sort of thing - is that something that you'll then hold back working on until until you've kind of finished the course, or are you looking to try and get that set up in place?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 20:20
I'll probably get that done in the summer, this summer. I will probably do that before. I'm not going to do much tutoring until August now. A couple of people who have been around for a few years and we love working together, I'm going to keep them. I will launch with the view of starting in August. So I'll keep the few people I've got at the moment. Some people when it came to the shutdown when the schools stopped, they stopped having tutoring. Which was probably not a great idea, but they probably thought they were going to have a few weeks off and then they'd come back. I don't think the children or even their parents realised the break was going to be quite so long. The end of August I think is a good time to start again. And then I can put the next few weeks into doing some video, doing some preparation because it is a different offer than I've made before. It's quite different. So it needs a different approach.

Jeremy Cline 21:07
Yeah. And I gather, it's quite a lot of upfront work. I mean, once you've got it all set up then great, but it's it's full front loaded. Absolutely. We were talking a couple of weeks ago with Ali Temple who's kind of going down the same route. He's doing some online courses - he's a career and business coach. He was saying that it's just so much work getting it off the ground. And the hope is, once it's off the ground, it requires, you know, just a little bit of TLC going forward, but hopefully not too much.

Annie Dehaney-Steven 21:39
My study wall is covered in post it notes. I signed up to this product called Trello that you can use on your computer for planning. But actually planning is a lot bigger than that. It has to be physical, you have to write it on a post it note, you have to stick it on the wall, and my wall is covered in post it notes in different colours for different things. I did that for the online tutoring. And I'm gonna have to do it all over again for the filming stuff. I found a course before I decided to tutor online. I found a course that taught how to tutor online in that way - videos, PowerPoints. And I was surprised at how slapdash it can be. I spent quite a lot on it, but there are PowerPoints where there are spelling mistakes. The whole thing looks beautiful, but being a bit of a pedant, a spelling mistake drives me mad! And I'm determined that I'm not going to do that. I know it's going to be a lot of work to make it the way I want it to be. But as my husband says, don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. It just has to be good.

Jeremy Cline 22:46
I'm learning about minimum viable products as well. So it's just got to be enough that you can get it off the ground and then you can tinker and carry on as you go.

Annie Dehaney-Steven 22:56
Otherwise it will never end. It's a project that I think I will be working on probably into next month. Hopefully it'll be done by then, start launching towards the end of July, and hopefully start tutoring towards the end of August just before school starts again. It's well known amongst school and college teachers that students go off in July for the summer holidays and in that six weeks, they forget everything they've done. The first six weeks, from September to the first half term, it can be really hard to get anything back from students because they've been on school holiday - this year is going to be so much harder. I think the numbers show that a third of students have been using whatever facilities have been offered them over the shutdown. And some students don't have a computer so schools are going to be a bit of a mess in September. And I also - have you heard of flipping the classroom?

Jeremy Cline 23:57
No, no, what's that?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 23:58
Flipping the classroom is where you set work for students to do at home, where they teach themselves something, and then in class, you test and refine. So it's not like working on something in class and then you set them homework that tests what they've learned. It's the other way around. And it's been around for a few years and I've used it with some classes and some students like it and some students hate it. But I think the only way schools are really going to manage teaching for the foreseeable future is to have students teaching themselves more or less at home and going in for the bits that they have to have someone come and speak to them one to one, or they need to do some practical stuff. I think there's going to be - I don't want to put this out to other would-be tutors out there - but I think there's going to be quite a lot of tutoring work around.

Jeremy Cline 24:48
Well, I was gonna ask about the opportunities presented by the current situation, the coronavirus crisis. I mean, it sounds terrible to talk about opportunities, but the fact is this sort of thing does create opportunities. So everyone now is doing so much more online. And I've seen talk of universities planning to deliver much more in the way of their courses online. Is this an opportunity that you want to take advantage of? And how do you think that you'll do that?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 25:17
It is unfortunate to benefit from people's problems. But I think any tutor who cannot in some way boost what they offer by going online is missing a trick. There's going to be so little face to face tutoring. Tutors must go online now. And I think there is a whole group of students now who will have missed out on half a year's learning. In some ways, it's not all bad. I mean, that does mean a lot of them have spent half a year with their families they wouldn't have had before. I think there have been some good things and I'm hoping that the world is going to be a kinder place after this, but some students are going to struggle and I think it's up to tutors, especially tutors who have good outcomes, and tutors who can help those students with difficulties that can make learning quite challenging. A lot of students are nervous of learning. And I think helping someone overcome their nervousness or gain a bit more confidence is key. And tutors are going to have to do that. And sometimes with very nervous students, I don't know whether I told you this last year, but I had one student last year - a math student - who I taught in school, but I also tutored online with a small group of girls of the same age, 14 to 15. This student was in class wouldn't open her mouth and would blush furiously if you looked at her. But online, she was amazing, because although she knew everyone could see her, and I could see her, we could all hear her, she was in her own environment, and she just came alive. And I think that's going to be good for some students. Some students are going to find it a lot easier. It feels more like one to one. I think if you're at the student end - it doesn't feel like it if you're on the teachers end - but I think it's going to be good for some students, and I would like to see some of that. I do know some tutors who won't have anything to do with tutees they think cannot succeed, because they feel it doesn't look good if they have tutees who don't succeed. But working in FE, you realise that it isn't so much the destination. For some students, it's the fact that they have managed to do a piece of work or have managed to offer an opinion on something, managed to finish something. It's the journey. For some students, just the being at the tutorial session online or face to face is a big thing. And if you're already struggling with maths at school, why are you going to think that having a stranger staring through the screen at you is going to help. It's more about building confidence, and very often you find that when they build confidence, quality of work changes, and I think we're going to see a lot more of that. I think we're going to have more chance to work with nervous students, and I think that's quite important. One of my things has always been overcoming nervousness - with adults and students. I haven't had many adults, but overcoming nervousness I think is very important.

Jeremy Cline 28:07
When we speak again in a year's time, which I hope that we will, let's assume a sort of best case outcome for the current situation and things do go back relatively to normal, probably not the way they were, but that we don't have second and third outbreaks and all that sort of stuff and more lockdowns and that sort of thing. So 12 months time, what do you hope that your business will look like at that point?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 28:30
In 12 months time, I hope that I will have two, two and a half days of either tutoring or preparing for tutoring. The rest of the time will be, by this time I will have finished my exams, and I'll be looking forward to my graduation. So everything is going to happen in the next year. After that, I would want to tutor online say four days a week. Which for me will be full time. I am going to be 60 this month. I'm going to start taking the occasional long weekend from time to time. Also I want to do more music. Maybe this time next year, I'll be thinking about extending my offer to four days a week. And I might even by then be offering science online as well as maths.

Jeremy Cline 29:14
Presumably hopefully by then you will also have your video courses up and running as well?

Annie Dehaney-Steven 29:19
My idea is that I get my first lot done, I offer them at a very competitive price for a certain time. And every three months I go through that. This summer I launch the number and calculation one, later on I'll do air and volume and space, later on I'll do algebra. And I'll add to as the years go on. So probably this time next year, my second lot will be out there hopefully.

Jeremy Cline 29:47
Well good luck with it all. It's been lovely catching up with you. I'm glad to hear that things are still going well, even in the current circumstances. Genuinely I look forward to catching up again and finding out how things are going.

Annie Dehaney-Steven 29:59
Thank you very much Jeremy. It's nice to see you again. And I didn't hear your child at all!

Jeremy Cline 30:06
I should explain that at the time of recording I've got my own daughter at home, but fortunately I don't think there's been too much capering going on!

Annie Dehaney-Steven 30:14
Thank you very much!

Jeremy Cline 30:17
Thanks very much Annie. Okay, I hope you enjoyed that catch up with Annie Dehaney-Steven. It was lovely to speak to her and find out how things have been going since we last spoke and it has been a year ago. And great to find out what she's been doing. And interesting that she kind of reassessed. She decided to do this masters course and realised that she had to put the online tutoring a little bit on the back burner while she concentrated on the masters. It was also great to hear from Annie about how there's an opportunity for her and people like her in the circumstances at the time we were recording the interview, the Coronavirus crisis. There's such a great opportunity for people in particular who are doing things online. And, yeah, it's opportunity born out of really very unpleasant and unfortunate circumstances. But it has changed things. And there are opportunities there, and it's great that people like Annie are seeing and acting on those opportunities. You'll find show notes on the website at changeworklife.com/46. And if you're also thinking about reassessing what your job looks like, what your career looks like following the coronavirus crisis, then also on the website you'll find in the menu at the top there's a section marked 'Find career happiness'. And you'll find there a couple of exercises which are intended to help you work out what's good for you. There's two exercises - there's actually a third bonus exercise as well. But they're really intended to help you work out what you're good at, what you enjoy, and where you see your life going. And what might fit in with it. So it's a couple of short exercises. But I think if you do them, you'll really get quite a lot out of them. So if that's of interest, click on that section of the menu, you'll see a form to fill in, fill that in, and you'll get the exercises straightaway. So I hope you do that, and I hope you find them useful. Next week, it's going to be a really interesting interview. If you are thinking that you'd like to leave a job and start a business of your own but your concern is, how do you know that your business is going to succeed and enable you to support the lifestyle that you want? Well, then this is the episode you want to listen to, because that is exactly what we talk about. I can't wait to see you then. Cheers. Bye.