Episode 150: Should I follow my passion? Should I work remotely? What do I tell my family?  Ask Me Anything! – with Jeremy Cline of Change Work Life

Episode 150: Should I follow my passion? Should I work remotely? What do I tell my family? Ask Me Anything! - with Jeremy Cline of Change Work Life

Jeremy Cline 0:00
It's episode 150 of the Change Work Life podcast. You have asked me anything, and in this episode, I'm going to try and answer your questions. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work Life.

Jeremy Cline 0:29
Hello, and welcome to the Change Work Life podcast where we're all about beating this Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. If you want to know how you can enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life, you're in the right place. And welcome to an extra special episode of the podcast. This is episode 150, and to celebrate, we're doing something a bit different this week, with an episode where I answer your questions. That's right, there's no guests this week, it's just you and me. I asked you what you wanted to know, and you have told me. I've had some fantastic questions. And I'll see how many I can get through in this episode. I've had quite a mix of questions, some asking about me and my career transition, some about careers in general, and a few from people with very specific questions about their own particular circumstances. So, I'll try to mix these up as we go through them and see what we can cover. So, I've decided I'm going to do this pretty unrehearsed. So, it's probably going to be a bit of a flow of consciousness. And that's really because I think we'll both get more out of it if I do it that way. And I'd rather give you genuine, off the cuff answers, rather than reading off a prepared script. Okay, so let's start with a question from Michael.

Jeremy Cline 1:52
So, Michael's question is this: on the passion hypothesis, what is your take on follow your passion, versus don't follow your passion advice? Okay, so I'm going to answer this question as being about the advice. And I think that's quite important, because in some cases, it will be the right thing for you to follow your passion, and in some cases it won't. As to the advice itself, I think that following your passion is actually pretty terrible advice. I don't think anyone who says, 'Oh, follow your passion', I don't think they're giving particularly good advice at all. And there's a few reasons why I say this. So, first of all, it puts pressure on you to find your passion. And it's not always easy or obvious to discern what it is. There might be hobbies that you have, there might be things which you enjoy doing, but are they really your passion? The second reason is that what's important to you, I guess it changes over time. Does it make sense to commit yourself now and go all in with something which might not interest you in a few years' time? For me, you need an opportunity to explore to see what's out there. I mean, if you think about what you were like as a child, you were probably interested at various points in dinosaurs, space, mediaeval knights, you know, all that kind of thing that every single child seems to be interested in. Maybe you're more settled now in terms of what you like, what you enjoy, but there are probably new things which spark your interest from time to time. So, yeah, committing to something now and not allowing scope for new things which might come up, yeah, I just don't think that makes sense. There's also the fact that your passions might not necessarily fit with the world of work. So, maybe you love something, but can you earn a living from it? In some cases, the answer might be yes. I mean, you've got professional sports people, artists, musicians, gamers, YouTubers, yeah, they all exist, yeah, doing something, earning a living from your passion, it's definitely possible. But if there's no demand for what you're passionate about, then you're probably not going to be able to earn a living from it. I remember reading a book where the guy was talking about someone who just loved cooking, and they loved cooking steak in particular, but they weren't actually very good at it. And every time they cooked, the steaks just came out like shoe leather. And he was saying, 'Well, you know, this person might absolutely love cooking steak, but they're not very good at it. And people aren't going to pay the money for it.' So, does your passion actually fit the world of works, something you can make money from? And this kind of leads on to the next point that comes to mind, which is whether or not you really want to depend on your passion for your income. I mean, there's a big difference between doing something for fun, and having to do it because you need to make a living from it. So, I grew up with someone who's now a professional musician. I mean, he's very successful, he's been on TV, he loves what he does. But it is quite a precarious career. And he told me about the stress of doing live performances, and you can't get a single note wrong, which, being an amateur musician myself, I know that that's actually quite hard. But you're being paid to do something perfectly. Do you really want that? Do you want the stress? And don't get me wrong, again, as with probably all the answers that I'm going to give in this episode, there's going to be exceptions. I've actually got an interview in two weeks' time with someone who has made his passion his career. But if you listen to that interview, you'll see that even he talks about the struggle of doing what he has to do to get paid. So, where what he wants to do as part of his passion conflicts with what his paying public wants him to do. And I guess the last point I'll make on this question is that passion isn't necessarily a reliable indicator of job satisfaction. I'll say that again: passion is not necessarily a reliable indicator of job satisfaction. It's going to be the features of the job itself which are more likely to make it satisfying than your own personal passion. It's going to be whether those features of the job align with you. This is when, if you go through my coaching process, I start with strengths and values, because that's what we use to identify the features of a job which is important to you. Which, if they're there, you're more likely to find it personally satisfying. So, it could be the work environment, it could be the type of work you do, it could be the type of colleagues you have, how collaborative it is, all that kind of stuff. It's more about features than personal passion. It's kind of focusing on loving what you do, rather than doing what you love, if that makes sense. So, loving what you do, rather than doing what you love, and finding that personal satisfaction in what you do. Okay, so I think that's enough on that question. Michael, thank you very much for that question. That was a great one to start with.

Jeremy Cline 8:06
Okay, so what have we got next? Okay, here's one from Sarah. So, Sarah says, 'I'm considering a career change from being a lawyer to something I believe I will enjoy a lot more and is much better suited to my personality. I know it sounds silly coming from a grown adult, but one of the things holding me back is how to tell my family that I'm turning my back on such a prestigious job. My father in particular is very proud of what I do and tells other family and friends. How is it best to break the fact that I want to leave law to do something else and deal with the fallout?' Well, Sarah, I absolutely love this question. And I can tell you, it's not a silly question, and you are definitely not alone in this. If you think about it, humans, we are pack animals. We are where we are today as a species because of cooperation. And part of that cooperation is approval from your tribe. So, it's only natural that you've got these fears about telling your family. Now, obviously, I don't have all the details of your circumstances, but I've got a few thoughts around your question. So, first of all, how clear in your mind are you about what you want to do? Now, maybe you know exactly what it is that you want to do, but if you yourself are still in exploration mode, then you may well feel a lack of clarity in your own mind, which can make it difficult to express yourself to others. Now, I'm not saying that you need clarity or a plan before you speak to family. If it feels right, then you could approach your family and say that you are looking to explore different options. But if what's going on in your own mind is a lack of clarity that you don't really know what you want to do, then I'd certainly start with taking some steps to address that. This kind of ties in with that point about how advanced your thinking is, but what is it you want your family to know right now? If you go back to my interview with Yosef Lynn, in Episode 142, where it's about conversations with spouses about career change, but you can use similar principles, and one of the points that we talked about in that episode is, what is it that you want your family to know at the moment. Dealing with what's kind of an obvious point, but I know it's one that people do sometimes find tricky, but that's the fact that, well, Sarah, this is your career. It's not your father's, it's not your family's. If you were doing something just because it meets your family's approval, then it's more likely to make you unhappy. And potentially, it could even make you resentful towards them. Now, they may not even realise that, they may not even realise that you are only doing this job to make them happy. Yeah, you don't want it to get you into a stage where you're not doing what's right for you, and where it leads to feelings of resentment from you to them. And following on from that, something which previous guest has said about, possibly a couple of previous guests, what someone else thinks is none of your business. By which I mean, you can't actually know what someone else is thinking unless you ask them. And also, there's not very much that you can do about what someone thinks of you or what you're planning to do. So, you say that your father is proud of what you do. But Sarah, who says that your father is not going to be proud of you if you leave law and do something else? My suspicion is that he's probably going to be proud of you, whatever it is that you end up doing. I mean, he might initially be surprised by your decision to leave law, he might initially have some reservations, but what evidence do you have that he won't be proud of you whatever you do next? I was just thinking of one of my colleagues who is also a lawyer, a bit older than me, he's got a daughter who is a lawyer, who is a similar age to me. Well, I say she's a lawyer, she's not a lawyer anymore. She changed career a few years ago, and she now works for a charity. And my colleague, her father, is incredibly proud. And a large part of that is because he sees just how much she is enjoying the work that she does now. So, yeah, your parents are probably going to be proud of you, whatever it is that you do, especially if they can see how much you're enjoying yourself. A final tip for you, Sarah, is to think about what is the best thing likely to happen if you discuss it with your family. So, think about, if you tell your family about your plans, whatever they might be, what's the best thing likely to happen in terms of their reaction? And also, think, realistically, what's the worst thing that can happen. What's the worst reaction that, realistically, you think is likely to happen? Then, if you take both those things, the best thing and the worst thing, and you score them on a scale of one to 10, where one is absolute calamity, end of the world, and 10 is best result ever, my guess is that the worst thing likely to happen is that they might express a bit of disappointment. Maybe they will tell you that they think you're doing the wrong thing. On a scale of one to 10, what's that, five out of 10 perhaps. So, you know, not great, but definitely not the end of the world. But on the other hand, what's the best thing? What's the best reaction? Well, they could be grateful that you've told them, they want to help you, maybe they go, 'Oh, thank goodness, it's been clear to us that you've not been happy for ages.' Maybe they even know some people who can help you with your change, depending on what that is. So, scoring that out of 10, what's that? Eight? Maybe even nine. So, if the worst thing then that can happen, if the worst reaction isn't that bad, but the best thing is really quite good, why not do it? Okay, Sarah, hope that's helpful, and best of luck with the conversation, whenever you have it.

Jeremy Cline 15:15
Okay, next question. I've got two here, which I think I'll answer these ones together, because they're kind of related to each other. So, first of all, a question from Brendan, which is, when are you going to make the switch to coach slash podcaster full time? And another kind of related question. Going from lawyer to coach, can you talk about the transition, especially also monetary, and how you managed it? Do you keep the day job, save money, for how many years, et cetera? And how did you stay motivated in your day job? Okay, so let's answer these two questions with a bit of background. So, as I record this episode, I am in a situation where I split my time. So, part of the week is dedicated to this podcast and also my coaching practice, and the other part of the week, I still practice as a lawyer, which has been my job now for 20 years, I think, yeah, it's about nearly 20 years since I qualified. So, first of all, the decision to split my time this way was huge, because I was a lawyer full time before I made the decision to spend part of the week dedicated to the podcast, and now my coaching. When I look back, it was really unlikely that I would have started the podcast or now the coaching if I had been working full time. But when I was making the decision, it was a huge decision for me. I was in the situation, when I was working full time, that I couldn't just quit my job. I didn't feel at all comfortable doing that. But also, I knew that time was going to be my biggest obstacle, if I didn't effectively create more time. I had, still have, a pretty demanding job, long hours, commute, all that kind of thing, and also, when I was thinking about the change, I had a very young daughter. And obviously, you know, weekends, I couldn't dedicate to pursuing my own things, I had to do stuff like childcare, and take pressure off my wife as well, who was doing most of the childcare during the week at that point. It wasn't just the financial aspect about not quitting. Yeah, okay, so I am now paid less, because I don't do the day job five days a week, but I am in a position where, I'm in a very fortunate position where I still get paid enough. But yeah, I mean, my biggest fear around asking at work to dropping down to this arrangement was the reaction I was going to get, and whether they'd say yes. I mean, here was I, in pretty much the prime of my career, and I'm going and saying, 'Well ,you know what, I now want to do this part time', which, frankly, for a male in my position, that's pretty unusual. I can think of one other guy in my company who's done it, who's vaguely similar age to me. Otherwise, it tends to be people who are coming up to retirement, who are reducing their hours. And so, I had a lot of fears around just asking the question. And I got some coaching on this particular aspect, which was enormously helpful and really set me in the right frame of mind for asking the question. Another reason for taking the decision to split my time this way, and not just go all in at that point, was at the time, I really didn't know how I was going to earn money. With the first set of coaching I had, I decided I was going to start the podcast, but I didn't really have a clear idea what I was going to do with it to make money. And so, I still needed the money to come in to pay the bills and all that kind of thing. And after I started the podcast, it did actually take me quite a long time to figure that out. How was I going to get paid? Where was I going to get this income from, which was going to replace my salary as a lawyer? And it was about 18 months in that I realised I was spending most of my time on starting and then running the podcast. So, I'd created this time by going part time with the lawyer job, and I was using all of that created time, basically, to keep the podcast going. And, you know, I enjoyed it. In fact, I still do enjoy it. I really love doing the podcast. But I realised, as I said, about 18 months in, that I just wasn't getting very much closer to figuring out what I wanted to do, how I was going to, having started the podcast, use this to earn money, to switch full time to something else that wasn't law. That was what led me to get my second round of coaching. And it was a result of that coaching that I decided to start my own coaching practice, which I appreciate is a little bit meta, I got coached, and as a result of that, decided to do coaching myself. But you know what? It worked for me, and I'm loving it. I really am. So, I started that about a year ago, in February 2022. I started by offering free sessions to see if I enjoyed it and whether I was any good at it. Turned out, I did enjoy it, and the people I was coaching said that they were getting results. So, I figured, yeah, you know what, there's something here. I got my first paying client in May last year, May 2022. And so, now I've got paying coaching clients, whilst doing the coaching part time. So, once I was in that position, the next step was figuring out, okay, so what do I need to have in order to quit, if you like, the day job. So, this involved quite an in-depth discussion between me and my wife. If I talk you through the methodology that we use, this isn't necessarily the methodology that you have to use, but it might give you an idea of where we were at. So, first of all, sounds boring, but it's quite important, we did a bit of budgeting. So, we had a look at what our outgoings were, what we need to bring in to pay for those things which we identified as being essential. So, we looked at all the outgoings and thought, okay, so, which are the ones here which are absolutely non-negotiable, and it's the kind of things that you'd expect. So, it's the mortgage, the gas and electricity bills, the water bills, food, all that kind of stuff, plus one or two other things, which were like, you know what, not prepared to compromise on that. So, we got this list, and we figured out roughly how much that was. And as a result of that, we came to, if you like, a minimum monthly income. So, it was a figure where, if I got to this minimum monthly income on full time coaching, then if we combine that with what my wife earns with her job, then we had something that we were comfortable with. It was kind of like this sort of minimum escape velocity figure. So, we had this figure, and then, we kind of scaled that back to reflect the fact that, as things stand at the moment, I'm coaching on a part-time basis, so we kind of have this, okay, so I want to earn this amount a month, full time, five days a week, I am now doing part time, so what's the proportion there? So, scaled it back. And what we've agreed is that, now I've got this kind of scaled-back figure, if I can effectively show myself and show my wife that I can consistently achieve this for about three months, then that's kind of the escape velocity figure. That's the, okay, I've demonstrated sufficiently here, I am in a position now where I can quit my job, there's enough indicators here that this is going to work. So, what that means in terms of timing? As I record this, I'm not yet sure. I've kind of got an eye on the second half of this year, 2023, as being the time when I might hand in my notice and quit my job, but we'll see. We'll just have to see, you know, how the coaching practice goes. And by the time this episode goes out, maybe I'll have a few more clients, and that position will be a bit closer. But that's the methodology. And that's how we came up with this, financially speaking, figure that would allow me to quit. Maybe it's cautious, there's definitely an argument that sometimes, if you just quit, then you've got to make it work, and I know people who have been made redundant, it's kind of forced them to do whatever it is that they're going to do, and they've just had to make it work, because they don't have any other option. Well, we did have another option, and that's what we've chosen, and that's what we're comfortable with. It is going to be different for everyone. In terms of the question about keeping myself motivated in the day job, now, obviously, I am looking to pivot out of that, and that's because I don't see myself doing that, in the particularly long term, certainly, you know, for another 20 years of my career. You know, it can be tough, actually. It can be tough keeping myself going in that. Partly, I've had to give myself some grace that the transition has taken longer than I first thought. It's been a few years now. Yeah, I'm definitely heading in the right direction, but it has been a lengthy process. And would I have liked to have been in a position where I kind of quit and pursue my own thing sooner? Well, yes. But okay, I am where I am. I've taken the action that I've done. Yeah, I just kind of have to be comfortable, I can allow myself that feeling to be more comfortable, that I'm closer to where I want to be now, and the future has kind of got a bit more clarity to it. Yeah, I just don't beat myself up about the fact that it seems to be taking, from my perspective, a bit of a long time. That's fine. Also, in the lawyer job, I'm always on the lookout for ways that my current job can help me in the future with the coaching practice. So, what skills can I build? What kinds of communication can I try, which I've learned on the podcast? I've had a few episodes about communicating with colleagues. So, there was one with Brigitta Hoeferle, where we talked about NLP and approaching conversations. There's another one with Denise Liebetrau, about having difficult conversations at work. So, I've learned all these things which I can practice, so it's kind of spotting these opportunities to improve on stuff. Yeah, I'm not going to say that it's not tough to keep motivated with things, and there's certainly been the odd occasion where I've kind of thought, 'You know what? Can I just quit now?' But I've known, you know, my wife and I have now got this agreement as to what quitting looks like, and I'm definitely heading in the right direction.

Jeremy Cline 28:25
Okay, so it was a bit of a long answer, but nevermind. What do we have next? Okay. All right. Here's an interesting one. It's from anonymous. Actual topic. How do I know if remote work is for me, or just the current job is a bad fit? Okay, so thanks for this question. I do feel like it's only part of a question though. So, I'm assuming that your current role isn't remote, and also that your current role is also something, for whatever reason, you're not particularly enjoying. And clearly, you're thinking that a remote job might be better. The where and the how of work is definitely an important part of the equation. But it's only a part. And there are definitely other factors here. So, remote work can give you certain things. So, it can give you more time, if you're not commuting, it can give you more flexibility in terms of the hours you work, it might give you flexibility about where you work. So, maybe the idea of being a digital nomad, laptop on the beach, maybe that appeals to you. There's also things that remote work might not give you. So, something that a lot of people struggled with during the various lockdowns that we had during the pandemic was this clear distinction between home and work, and the two kind of blurring into one another. And so, unless you're pretty disciplined about things, then you can lose that clear distinction. Another thing that remote work might not give you is the quality of the interaction with your colleagues. It's definitely not the same as face-to-face. There's a lot more effort involved than if you're in the same office. When we were fully remote, because we had to be, then, yeah, the extra time was great, but one thing that I have realised I like, when I've been back in the office, is just having those random conversations with people, what was on TV last night, or you hear a couple of people talking about something, and you decide to join in. You don't get that in the same way with remote working. The past couple of years or so have shown us just how much can be done remotely. And it's an awful lot. And that's great. But that doesn't answer the question of the type of work you'll find fulfilling. And that goes back to what I was saying earlier about your own strengths, your own values, and figuring out the characteristics of a job which will align with you. Remote work might well be part of that. Maybe you do your best work when you're on your own. Maybe having the freedom and flexibility that remote work can give you is important for you. But I would encourage you to look beyond that and look at the wider picture here. So, leaving aside where you do it and how you do it, what sort of work might you find fulfilling? Okay, so hope that helps answer that question.

Jeremy Cline 32:12
Okay, here's another question. Oh, I like this one. Who would be your dream podcast guest? Yeah, no, that is a good question. So, I guess some of my favourite interviews have been where the guest has been through their own major career transitions. So, I think about Adrian Muxlow, who was one of my really early guests, who got made redundant from his IT job, and he started the hypnotherapy practice, and absolutely loved it. And he started that age 56. So, you know, a real inspiration, certainly the idea that it's ever too late, he's proved that that's absolutely not the case. Nicole Akong, who worked in finance and then started her own jewellery business. Emma Austin, she was an accountant, had her own business, quit it, and is now a canine behaviourist. Some of the interviews I enjoy most are those where I dive into these journeys, what motivated them, the challenges, the doubts, all that kind of stuff. So, I guess, in that vein, one person who I'd love to have on the podcast is Jed Mercurio. If the name is not familiar to you, he's the writer behind some of the hit TV shows that we've had in the UK. So, most famously, probably, is Line of Duty, he also wrote a show called Bodyguard, which was on in the past couple of years. So, he's written some really, really successful and popular stuff. But he started out as a doctor, as a medical doctor. And it was whilst he was doing that, that he wrote a script for a show called Cardiac Arrest. I think this is sometime in the early, mid-90s, something like that. And Cardiac Arrest was a pretty hard-hitting drama about what it was like to work in the medical profession, so the long hours, the stress, the support, or possibly lack thereof, from colleagues. So, yeah, his story is one that I would really, really be interested to explore further. So, yeah, Jeb Mercurio, he's definitely one guest I would love to have on. Someone else, kind of in a similar vein, that I'd love to interview is Robert Rinder, who some of you may know him in the UK as Judge Rinder. So, he was a criminal barrister, who then became the, air quotes, judge in a reality courtroom series. So, kind of along the lines of Judge Judy. And since he's done that, he's been on things like Strictly Come Dancing and Celebrity Bake Off, all that kind of stuff. And I think it'd be really interesting to discuss with him things like the reaction of his colleagues, the bar, of him going into TV, and how he worked through that. Because the bar, becoming a barrister, it's got a reputation as being a bit of a stuffy, conservative profession, whether that's still justified or not, I don't know. So, yeah, I'd love to know what the reaction was to his colleagues to him going to effectively star in reality TV, and why that didn't put him off and that kind of thing. So, yeah, he's another guest I'd be interested in having on. Having said all that, I haven't actually made any attempt to contact either of these two. They're kind of on my list of potential guests, but I've not done anything. They've literally just been ideas in my head. So, maybe that's something I could do, instead of just talking about having them on, is reaching out and seeing whether they'd be interested. Cool. Okay, so thanks for that question.

Jeremy Cline 36:23
I think we've got time for just one more. Oh, here we go. Here's a 150th-themed question from Andy. Andy asks, if you only had 150 minutes this month to work on making you happier in your career, what would you do? So, 150 minutes, that's two and a half hours, that's actually a fair chunk of time. So, if it's not something you've done before, I would spend that time getting to know yourself better. One of the most impactful things I did when I was being coached myself was the work on myself, particularly around values. It was that work which explained to me why some things just weren't working out. And it started to give me some much bigger clues about the sort of work that I'd like to do. There's loads of different ways that you can uncover your values, all sorts of different exercises. But this being my podcast, of course, I'm going to mention the exercises I've got on my website, which some of you will have heard me talk about them before, some of you may have done them. You'll find the exercises at changeworklife.com/happy, that's changeworklife.com/happy. Yeah, there's a couple of exercises there which help you to uncover your values, among other things, work out what's important to you. You don't have to start there, of course, but if you've never done any kind of self reflection before, then it is a good place to start. And you might as well start somewhere.

Jeremy Cline 38:18
Okay, I think we'll finish there. Well, I've certainly enjoyed answering your questions, and I hope you've enjoyed it, too. Get in touch, let me know what you thought of this episode. Would you like more solo shows like this? Would you like me to take listener questions? Let me know, there's a contact form on my website, which is at changeworklife.com/contact, or you can message me directly on Facebook, on Instagram, on Twitter. I'm @changeworklife, that's all one word, @changeworklife, on all those platforms, Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. So, you can message me there, or as I say, go to the contact form on my website, changeworklife.com/contact. That's episode 150 done, but I'm not going to stop there. I've got another great interview coming up in two weeks' time. So, if you haven't already, make sure you subscribe to the show, and I can't wait to see you in two weeks' time. Cheers. Bye.