Episode 142: Relationships and careers: how to talk to your partner about career change – with Executive Coach Yosef Lynn

Episode 142: Relationships and careers: how to talk to your partner about career change - with Executive Coach Yosef Lynn

Jeremy Cline 0:00
Changing career can be exciting. But it can also be really unsettling. And not just for you, but for your loved ones as well. So, if you are contemplating a change of career, what are some of the ways that you can discuss it with your spouse or partner? How can you head off any feelings of fear or insecurity that it might raise in them? How can you bring them with you in the process without creating any unnecessary stress? That's what we're going to talk about in this week's episode. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work Life.

Jeremy Cline 0:48
Hello, and welcome to Change Work Life, the show where we're all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. If you want to know how you can enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life, then you're in the right place. Change can be unsettling. If you've been thinking about changing career, or perhaps your mid-change, there are probably times when it's all become a little bit stressful. There are lots of uncertainties around future pay, going back into education, or even just the general fear about whether or not the change is going to work out. But change isn't just unsettling for you. It can also be unsettling for your loved ones, spouse or partner. So, if you're going through a change, how can you prevent it from putting a strain on your relationship? How can you discuss it with your loved ones in a constructive way and help them through their own fears? That's what we're talking about today, and I'm delighted to welcome this week's guest, Yosef Lynn. Yosef is a coach who helps individuals flourish in their career and couples take their marriage to the next level. He's the co-author of Not a Partnership, Why We Keep Getting Marriage Wrong and How We Can Get It Right. Yosef, welcome to the podcast.

Yosef Lynn 1:59
Thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it. It's nice to meet you.

Jeremy Cline 2:04
And you too. You often come across career coaches, and you often come across relationship coaches, but you don't usually find someone who does both. So, tell me how that happened?

Yosef Lynn 2:16
So, it's interesting. I've spent basically about the past two decades immersed in both of these topics. What I find is that, especially in our world today, is that these two areas of our life are so intermixed with each other. And people don't realise it so much, but it's so amazing to see that when a couple has an amazing marriage, how that impacts the professional parts of our life in such an awesome way and allows us to thrive that much more. And even when things don't go so well, with certain work endeavours, it allows us to be that much more resilient when we feel like our major relationship is solid and really strong. And vice versa. When people are really thriving at work and things are taking off, and you're making breakthroughs left and right, but you don't feel that the most important relationship in your life is really solid, nothing really feels complete. So, I see that these two areas are two areas I'm not only passionate about, but I see they're so mixed with each other all the time. And therefore, that's why I've chosen to really kind of direct the people that I work with in really one of two of these areas, but what I find more than anything else is that I'm constantly overlapping both categories non-stop.

Jeremy Cline 3:48
And what was your route into coaching? So, you started out in architecture, I think I'm right in saying.

Yosef Lynn 3:53
Right. So, I started with an architecture, that was a long time ago, and I realised, I came to the conclusion that, instead of wanting to build your designer kitchen, instead of building infrastructure, I wanted to build people. And that was really kind of my switch. So, I feel like I'm an architect at heart, I don't feel that's something that I've let go of, I'm still very passionate about it, but I feel like I've tried to take all those key skills of being organised, systematic, creating structures, building systems, and tried to apply that to how can I give people the life that they really want. So, that was kind of my transition. So, I don't really feel like it's so far apart. It's not as though I used to be an engineer, and now I am a film director. I feel like it's something which has a real kind of story to it. And it's funny, the skills I learned in architecture are things that, even though they may not apply in the same way, are still ideas that run through my mind whenever I'm trying to figure out how to create a sustainable plan for people to be able to build certain areas of their life.

Jeremy Cline 5:06
That's such a great point about just transferable skills, generally. People get so focused in, you know, I am an architect, I am a lawyer, around this, I am that, that they forget that they have built up this wealth of skills, which they can apply to something which, on the face of it, might not necessarily seem particularly related. I'm just curious, do you think you can point to anything specific, a sort of "aha" moment that made you switch from, if you like, buildings to people? Or was it more gradual than that?

Yosef Lynn 5:40
For me, I feel that, while I was always drawn to architecture, and I love the whole way of how it works, always when I look back on my life, what really made me come alive is relationships and being able to help others directly. And so, I think that I never really merged the two together. And what happened was that kind of in the middle of my college degree, when I was pursuing architecture, I took some time off to travel, get in touch with myself a bit more, get in touch with my religious roots, in different parts of my life, a real self-exploration. And that's where I kind of realised, well, I can merge these things together, and I can take my passion about architecture, and my desire and love to help people, and I can merge them together. And that really led to a big shift in my life.

Jeremy Cline 6:40
Brilliant. Cool. Thanks for that. So, I thought we would approach this subject by introducing a case study, which perhaps we can talk to. So, I've got Tom and Suzanne. They're married, they've got a young child. Tom is a lawyer. He has been for the past 10 years, he's very successful, he's on a good career track, he's pretty well paid. Suzanne also works. She does the bulk of the childcare. So, while their child is at nursery, she's responsible for drop offs, pickups, that kind of thing. And she earns a reasonable amount, but probably not enough for them to maintain their current lifestyle were Tom to stop working and stop having an income. Tom, on the other hand, he's sufficiently well paid that, actually, he could keep them going if it came to it. So, usual trappings of midlife, as well as a family, mortgage, a couple of foreign holidays a year, all that stuff. So, outwardly, life looks pretty good. But Tom is unhappy in his current job, and he's thinking about a completely different career, which maybe he's got some ideas about that, maybe not at this stage, but he's starting to think, 'There's no way I can do law for the next 25-30 years of my working life.' So, Tom's been starting to have these thoughts, and he is aware of the life that he and Suzanne have built up together and standards of living. Before Tom even starts the conversation with Suzanne, this is probably quite a broad question, but what are some of the pitfalls, perhaps, if that's the right word, Tom might want to think about before he starts to raise the subject?

Yosef Lynn 8:44
The major pitfall that I see happening in this conversation you're describing right now is happening all the time. And it's amazing how many people that I've spoken to are just in the exact same situation that you're describing right now.

Jeremy Cline 9:02
I hope that'd be the case.

Yosef Lynn 9:05
The biggest pitfall is that you have to look at it from the standpoint of your spouse. And you have to realise that, when we start talking about things, career changes, making a pivot, doing something different, whatever your language is, we have to realise how much insecurity and fear that can create. Obviously, if someone has the millions put away, where, if everything goes terrible, no problem. But that's not most people. And when all of a sudden, we start talking about making a pivot, making a change, shaking things up, that can create a lot of fear, a lot of insecurity, that, wait a second, everything we've built up, everything that we have in our life, everything that we're used to doing, that could all of a sudden change. And a lot of times what happens is that people aren't aware of this whole emotional side that can really be going on with the other person, that you're now explaining this scenario to. And if people aren't aware of that, it just creates so much unneeded tension and frustration and strife, and it's really sad. But when you can really relate to that, and empathise with the fact that you know this sounds crazy, I know it's scary, and you can just get on the same page, as far as being able to really understand that, what you're describing, has a lot of difficult things attached to it, I find that's the most important thing to have in mind when engaging in this conversation.

Jeremy Cline 10:57
Any kind of career change is usually going to be a continuum. So, it's going to start with Tom feeling dissatisfied and wanting a change, without necessarily knowing what that change might look like. Then, he might come up with some ideas, he might start to explore them. He might get to the stage where he gets coaching himself. When is a good time to start the conversation? Is it right at the very beginning, 'Hey, listen, look, I'm unhappy, I'm starting to think about change. I'm still in exploration mode, but you know, that's where I am'? Or is it better to be a little bit further developed in your thinking before starting to have the conversations?

Yosef Lynn 11:45
I think that two things. Number one, it's a consistent feeling you're having, it's not just one day, you had a bad day, and now all of a sudden, you're going to go speak to your spouse about a career change. Like, whoa, every career, every job has bad days attached to them, let's not create too much emotional chaos. And number two is, I think that you want to also make sure that you've put in a bit of time and effort into where you want to get to, what you do desire, what you are yearning for. Now, I'm a huge fan of a lot of communication. I find that the more we communicate about things, the more you have a couple on the same page, the more they are a united front, then it just impacts things in that much more of a positive manner. I'm a huge fan of that. So, I usually like the conversation, the earlier we can start it, and they can kind of be in this together, it just creates so much more of a healthier outcome in the long run. I find what happens a lot of times is people wait too long in these conversations, and the person comes to their spouse and says, 'I've been thinking about this for years, and I've had enough', and they almost come to a conclusion, and then they engage in the conversation, we have to realise that, when the person is married, there's no such thing, and this may sound a bit funny, there's no such thing as independent decisions anymore. Decisions that I make in my life, they impact my spouse and my children. And I have to realise that my actions aren't just about me anymore. They have ramifications elsewhere. So, especially if I'm thinking about making a huge thing in my life, which is a career change, I have to realise that that is not just about what I want in my life, and what I need, and how I can be fulfilled, that's going to really impact someone else in a huge way. So, it's so important that, when we approach this whole thing in the team mindset, I see the results are really awesome. When it really happens in the way of real strife and people just doing what they want to do, I have yet to see in my own work that the outcome is really strong.

Jeremy Cline 14:08
So, on the one hand, Tom is well advised to do a bit of thinking beforehand about where he wants to go, but not necessarily to have come to the conclusion and got to the end. So, I'm just kind of thinking, so where on that continuum does Tom start to think, 'Okay, now's the right time'?

Yosef Lynn 14:31
I think pretty early on. I think that, if I just come to my spouse and say I want to make a change, and I haven't thought about what I really want in my life, what's really important to me, things I can maybe see myself doing, people that do inspire me that I would like to be able to make my life a bit more about, I find that it's just going to not give the conversation any real validity or give it the weight that it deserves.

Jeremy Cline 15:00
Let's talk about how you first introduce the conversation itself. On the one hand, Tom and Suzanne might have put their child to bed, and they're sitting down at the dinner table, and then Tom announces that he's starting to think about having a career change. And this has all come all out of the blue, and Suzanne certainly wasn't expecting this conversation to happen then and there at the dinner table. Alternatively, Tom could say, 'Look, Suzanne, I've been thinking about my career, and I've had some thoughts about it, I want to have a good discussion with you, but I want to almost like schedule a time. I don't want to do this here and now, spring it on you, we've got a free Sunday afternoon coming up, can we talk about it then?' So, I can see how not springing it on someone and how the second approach definitely has advantages. But on the other hand, it then gives Suzanne time to worry, because she's just had a little bit of a snippet about what the conversation might be. So, could you talk to that about how Tom can introduce that?

Yosef Lynn 16:13
I am a huge fan that there are two major fundamentals to all aspects of communication. And if people can get these two ideas right, then the world of communication just can really be an awesome part to your relationship. And number one is timing, and number two is how you say it. Okay? I'm not going to go into these things right now, but just to address your question directly, I think if Tom says, 'I really want to speak to you about something I've been putting a lot of time and effort into thinking about it, about my career. Don't worry, nothing drastic is happening right now. There's nothing that is falling apart. Things are as normal. But I really like to have a really good conversation about it and share with you some thoughts I've been having. When's a good time for us to engage in this?' I think that is a very healthy approach. On one hand, Tom saying, 'Don't worry." On the other hand, let's pick the right time, because it could be we have to run out in 10 minutes right now, or it could be Suzanne is exhausted and wants to go to bed. Who knows what? There could be many scenarios. So, on one hand, giving the reassurance, which is, 'Don't worry', on the other hand, it's important, so if we can find a time to speak about it in the near future, that would be amazing.

Jeremy Cline 17:37
I can definitely speak to that from personal experience. I think when I first had a conversation with my wife that I was thinking about my own change, and I literally just sort of marched into the living room, I think our daughter was having a nap, so she was having a bit of a rest, and I said, 'I need to talk to you about this. I'm thinking about changing career.' Let's just say I wish I'd spoken to you first. So, yeah, I definitely hear you. Whereas subsequent conversations, which had been around the big sort of stuff, and we have scheduled a time for it, yeah, there's definitely an underlying tension, a little bit of fear about what's going to come out, but I think, scheduling it for the future has definitely been a better approach. So, they've reached the appointed hour, and Tom now wants to open the conversation. What are some good ways, what are some bad ways that he can go about this?

Yosef Lynn 18:37
Well, I think what's important is the that you have to give that introduction, which is really about, 'I know, this is a huge thing. I'm not looking to do anything which is going to impact our family in a negative way. We're in this together. I realise my decisions affect you.' I think getting the team together, speaking about the fact that we're going to make this happen as a united front, I think that's the most important thing here. This is not Tom just telling his wife, 'Here's what I'm doing. Buckle up and get ready for the ride of your life.' I think it's much more about, let's just get on the same page as far as I realise the impact of this decision and the life that we have, and understanding that, as I'm beginning to speak about these various things. So, I think that's the initial thing that has to happen. I think once you engage in the conversation, what's very important for Tom to express, there's two things. The first thing is about how his work is impacting his life in a negative way. Why is this something that I'm thinking about all the time? Why am I really unhappy? How is this playing out in my personal life? I think it's important that he's able to bring Suzanne into the pain of what he's doing, of what's really going on in his life. And number two, I think it's important to then speak about, well, what he dreams about happening. Where do I dream to get to? I want to be in a work where I'm more inspired, which has more meaning, which connects to people, where I'm using my strengths. But let's give a bigger vision as far as where we want to get to, what I desire, what my end goal is here. And it doesn't even have to be that specific. But I think that just showing and describing the passion and desire that you have for something else is such an important part of the process, when we kind of speak about that end goal, as far as what does that change really look like if it does happen. Now, obviously, okay, so you start with, on one hand, the pain, on the other hand, let's get to the end goal desired where I want to get to. Okay. Now, there's a whole world of, okay, what are all the details, where are we actually going, what is the next move, what are the 15 different options. I'm not trying to be unrealistic, but I think it's important to start off with a bit of the emotional reality of what's happening here, before we just start going into, 'I'm switching into this job, and this thing.' And that's what I would say as far as I think that the healthiest way to go as far as the initial conversation.

Jeremy Cline 21:44
And you've mentioned it a couple of times here, but acknowledging that there are going to be emotions around this, I think that's sometimes what we miss. You kind of pretend that you can do it in a very objective manner, and these are the reasons why I'm doing this, these are the reasons why it's going to be better for both of us. But there really is going to be a lot of emotion around this, one of those emotions of which is going to be fear. And I think just recognising and acknowledging it and accounting for that got to be a good thing to do.

Yosef Lynn 22:18
And I find that it plays out so much. I can't tell you how many people I've seen made the wrong career pivot, and how that impacts their marriage in a drastic way. And there is a lot of fear here. Especially when people leave jobs where it's kind of more stable, you're working for someone, and now they go into the world of being an entrepreneur, it shakes a lot of things up, even if the financial outcome is the same, just the whole process and the risk involved in. And I think that people underestimate it too much. We don't realise that our professional lives impact so many other areas of our life. We don't live in this world today, it used to be that the language was work-life balance. Now it's work-life integration. And our professional life plays such a huge role when it comes to our parenting, our marriage, our own personal well-being, you name it, that when you come to have a conversation about changing your career, it's not just one technical part of your day, it's the entire existence of so many parts of your family life.

Jeremy Cline 23:38
So, Tom has done the best he thinks he can in terms of introducing the topic, reassuring Suzanne, telling her that it's going to be a team effort and all that kind of thing. But even so, Suzanne is bound to have some fears around this and possible objections. Can you talk to perhaps what some of those fears and objections might be?

Yosef Lynn 24:03
I think that those fears and objections will be a few of them. Number one is, what if it doesn't work out? Right? The unknown. People like the known, people don't like the unknown. Number two is, how is this going to impact our family life? Whether it's your work schedule, or whether it's a pay cut, or whether it's we have to move, who knows what? And number three, which I think is a huge thing, is that when you're in a healthy marriage, you don't want to see your spouse fail and things not go well. And especially when, a lot of times, you will have these conversations about a career change, not when your career is falling apart, it's when their career is going well. They're in a good job, they're in a good law firm, they're in a good hospital, they're in a good who knows what, and they're just not feeling like they're doing what they should be doing. So, on one end, you see your spouse as being successful, so even though they may not be that happy, but okay, but at least they're doing well, they have achieved X, Y and Z, and they are a partner, a senior, who knows what. And I think that, when we think about, 'Oh, my gosh, we may have a situation where my spouse might fail', that's a scary reality, and that's something that creates a lot of fear.

Jeremy Cline 25:36
And I think a lot of these fears are going to be things which Tom is having himself. Tom is going to be thinking, 'Hang on, what if it doesn't work out? How am I going to support my family? Does this mean that I'm not successful?', quote-unquote, whatever that might be. So, are these things in the conversation that Tom might anticipate and kind of head them off? Or is it better that he first finds out from Suzanne just what her specific fears and concerns are?

Yosef Lynn 26:13
I think that it's hard to make these conversations so calculated. I think that Tom is definitely going to have to listen out to what are the real fears there. But they're pretty predictable. If I look at the conversations I've seen people having, similar kind of dialogues like this, it's pretty predictable what the fears are. I think Tom's job is to be sensitive to that. I've seen these conversations spiral, unfortunately, the wrong way, in which Tom can all of a sudden get in defensive, 'You don't believe in me, you don't trust me, you don't think I can do it.' Whoa, we have to make sure, and that's why going back to the world of timing, making sure it's the right time to have these conversations, it's a tense topic that, if people are not really working hard to have a healthy conversation, it can really kind of go in many different not so pleasant directions very fast. But I think what's going to have to happen here, once we get towards the end of the conversation, is I think Tom is going to have to make it very clear. Okay, here's my systematic plan of what I'm doing in order to figure this out. And what I find is that, the more it can follow a kind of a systematic plan, I'm going to speak to these people, I'm going to get this kind of help, I'm going to look into X, Y and Z, then that can all of a sudden be a very calming part of the process. Data helps. And when I feel the person is making a decision, where they're getting outside help, they're collecting data, they're not doing anything which is just with an emotional kick behind it, that creates a lot of security in any sort of real career change.

Jeremy Cline 28:03
And Suzanne can help there by suggesting things that maybe Tom hasn't said he's going to do or hasn't thought about. So, going back to my example, when I said, 'I'm looking to quit and start my own business', my wife basically said to me, 'I think you should get some coaching first.' And I'd kind of heard of coaching, but it wasn't in a real definite, yes, I should get some coaching. But boy, was she absolutely right. That was the first thing I did, and that was absolutely pivotal in my journey. I want to talk a little bit about how the situation might evolve. Because as I mentioned at the start, there's slightly to be a continuum. And things might happen, which develop Tom's thinking, so maybe he gets his own coaching, he starts having conversations with other people, which either attracts him to something or repels him from something. How often does he and Suzanne check in on this kind of thing? Because at one end, you've kind of got, constantly, constantly, constantly talking about it, saying, 'I've done this, I've done that, I've done the other', which might become a bit wearing, maybe Suzanne's going, 'Okay, okay, I don't need quite so much information about the inner workings of your mind at every stage.' At the other end, Tom has gone from X to Y, and internally, he has gone through lots and lots and lots of different thought processes, and it kind of makes sense how he's got there. But Suzanne hasn't been party to all that. And so, Tom saying, 'I'm going to do Y', and she's going, 'Oh, hang on a minute. A few weeks ago, you said you were doing X. What's going on?' Can you talk to that? I suppose how often you check in on these sorts of things and keep each other informed on progress.

Yosef Lynn 29:53
So, I think a few things. Number one, to talk about it non-stop is too much. I find that that can sometimes create more frustration and more insecurity. Number two, I think, in this case, Tom has to ask Suzanne like, 'How often do you want to be informed of what's happening?' Because Tom's making huge decisions that are going to impact Suzanne, so he's got to find out, okay, how often. She may say, 'You know what? Let's sit down at night before we go to bed, or let's make a date once a week, and you'll catch me up on where things are up to.' I don't know. But I think if you really kind of figure out it's not just about what Tom wants to share, it's really what does Suzanne need to hear. And number three is to keep in mind that no one likes surprises. So, if all of a sudden, here I am, talking about I want to be a lawyer, and all of a sudden, I throw out the idea, and two weeks later, now I'm looking into medical school, and whoa, that creates a lot of insecurity in the process, when I don't see how you got from one thing to another. So, I think it's important to be aware of that. Sometimes people speak about a career change, and they want to do this, and now it's not discussed again till like 15 stages later, and this new plan is totally different than the old plan. And whoa, and that creates a lot of chaos.

Jeremy Cline 31:21
It does sound like it's going to be a certain element of trial and error between keeping someone too involved and not involved enough.

Yosef Lynn 31:29
Correct. And again, what I've seen with couples is, I'm always a fan of let's be more involved together, rather than less involved. Going towards that extreme, I usually find is much healthier, rather than going towards the side of less information.

Jeremy Cline 31:51
I've addressed this so far predominantly from Tom's perspective. And I feel like I really should get Suzanne involved as well. So, let's say Suzanne wants to be supportive. But she is going to have all these fears, all these concerns that we've talked about. So, from her perspective, what are some of the ways that she can stop her own thoughts just turning to all these fears of what could happen if things go wrong, and we don't have enough money to live on and all that kind of thing?

Yosef Lynn 32:37
So, I think that there are a few things here. Number one is that, and that's what we were speaking about earlier, but it's important that Suzanne says yes to this process. She's not just being told something, this is what we're doing. She's a part of this as well. And by her saying yes, let's explore this, means that, okay, she's now made a choice that, let's go down this road a bit. And I find that, when I see that, when spouses aren't given that choice, they're just told this is which way we're going, that creates a lot of unhealthiness. But let's say, you have our situation here, Tom wants to go about this, and he says, 'Is this something that you are happy for me to look into and explore, even though we spoke about all the issues that could bring up?' And Suzanne says, 'Yes, go for it.' So, all of a sudden, even just with her giving her we're-in-this-together stamp of approval, that creates a whole different process from the get-go.

Jeremy Cline 33:55
What happens if Suzanne says no?

Yosef Lynn 33:58
So, even before I go into my other things, we'll stop here. That's not uncommon. And I think it's important to figure out at that point, okay, so why no, what's really going on? Maybe Tom has had this conversation and has been really irresponsible all these years with certain things. Maybe Suzanne doesn't feel that she's had a chance to invest in her own career. I don't know. I think if that's just no, I think it's to find out where is the no coming from. But I think that having the conversation and going at this as something you're doing together is a real game changer, as far as creating a super healthy marriage throughout this process.

Jeremy Cline 34:45
Thanks for that. Sorry, I did interrupt you, but I just had to ask you that question.

Yosef Lynn 34:50
Second thing is I think that Suzanne needs to be honest to herself as far as what she needs from Tom in order to help her feel more secure during this. She may say to him, 'I really need you to reassure me that nothing's going on at work that is putting us in any sort of crisis, and there's nothing that you're hiding from me that is going to shake up our world overnight.' Who knows? Suzanne has got to be honest, what does she need during these next months in order to feel calm. And every person is going to be different. And number three is, and this may sound funny, it's important for Suzanne to invest in her own well-being, because the reality is, any career change creates some turbulence. And when we go through transitions in life about anything, the more we take care of ourselves, the more we can handle those transitions. And therefore, the word of self-care, everyone speaks about it, where it's really important is when times get stressful, when people are actually usually the worst at it, is when it's actually the most needed. And so, therefore, I think investing in some self-care is very important, because the reality is there will be transitions, there may be stress, there may be some late nights, there may be some out of the box decisions that have to happen, who knows what? So, the more that Suzanne is in a good place where she can handle the instability, that will be a very helpful part of the process.

Jeremy Cline 36:30
It strikes me, as we've been talking, that if either Tom or Suzanne came to you and said, 'Yosef, we've got this situation here, I'm not quite sure how to handle it, help me', then your advice to both of them could actually be quite similar. I mean, there's no reason why Suzanne needs to be anything approaching passive in this kind of thing. She can proactively say, 'Okay, well, this is what I need. This is what I think we should do. This is how often I think we should have conversations. This is what I'd like to hear.' In the same way as you might say to Tom exactly the same thing.

Yosef Lynn 37:09
100%. And a lot of times, if I have a couple where they're going through a big change, as far as their career is concerned, I may spend a lot of time with, let's say Tom is making a career change, and Suzanne is just trying to be supportive, but she feels insecure, or it's really difficult for her, or she's scared, I may actually spend a lot of time not dealing with Tom, as far as career change, but dealing with Suzanne, because she really needs the support, and how can we go with this in the best way, and where does she feel like it's stressing her marriage. And in my mind, this may sound funny, okay, that is a part of the world of career coaching.

Jeremy Cline 37:52
I think we've addressed all aspects of this that at least came to my mind. But I would like to ask you if there's anything that we've missed, or anything else that you feel is important to say in the context of this conversation.

Yosef Lynn 38:07
I just think that the most important thing is that I'm all for people, and I really feel, in a real deep way, the importance of people thriving in their professional life. It's underestimated too much as far as how much that impacts our well-being, both in the positive and negative way. But what I would just say is that, I think that we need to realise, when we make these decisions, how much they impact all the areas of our life. And the more especially you get on the same page, and you do this as a team in your marriage, I find what that can lead to is, not just the best possible outcome, but it can allow your marriage to flourish in the process as well, and not have it just be a time when everything gets shaken up. And I've seen too many couples have so much stress during career transitions, that really could have been avoidable, and that's a shame. And sometimes that stress is hard to recover from. So, I think the more that we have that mindset that our career changes, our midlife pivot impacts, not just ourselves, but all areas, especially of our personal life, I think the more we have that mind and we work accordingly, the better the outcome will be across many fronts.

Jeremy Cline 39:30
That's an absolutely great note to finish on. So, thank you for that. If anyone wants to explore this topic further, then, aside from your own book, which I'll put a link to in the show notes, do you have other books, podcasts, blogs, that you routinely refer people to or which help you?

Yosef Lynn 39:49
I think that, let's say in my marriage groups, the book that I always kind of come back to, is what we're speaking about here more than anything else is the world of communication. And people communicate in different ways. And there's an amazing book called The Five Love Languages, which is basically about how people need to receive love in different ways. Man, it's really the ultimate book, in my mind, about how we have to communicate with each other. And so, for entering a time where we're talking about career changes and the impact on the marriage, and we realise that communication is everything here, that if a person is going to spend a bit of time investing in how to allow their marriage to really flourish during this transition, I think working on communication skills is huge, and this book is A+ in my mind.

Jeremy Cline 40:43
And if people want to find out more about you, where would you like them to go?

Yosef Lynn 40:47
So, the best thing to do is, they can go onto my website, yoseflynn.com, and everything is there, as far as coaching or different groups or anything else that I'm involved with.

Jeremy Cline 41:00
Brilliant. I'll put links to those in the show notes. Yosef, this is a conversation that I've wanted to have on the podcast for some time now. Thank you so much for joining me.

Yosef Lynn 41:09
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And please continue to speak about these important topics. And hopefully, with your podcast, people will be encouraged to not only think big about their professional life, but go about that process in a healthy way.

Jeremy Cline 41:23
That's great. Thank you so much.

Yosef Lynn 41:25
Thank you.

Jeremy Cline 41:27
Okay, hope you enjoyed that interview with Yosef Lynn. It's fair to say that I wish I'd had the benefit of speaking to Yosef before I raised the possibility of a change of career with my family. I think the conversation probably would have gone a lot better than it at first did. The idea of approaching this with a team mindset was one which really resonated with me. And also, the fact that work life and home life can inevitably be intertwined. If you're not enjoying your work, then it may well have an impact on how you behave and your mood when you're at home. So, loads of useful tips. And don't forget, if you want to go back to any of it, then you'll find full show notes with the transcript at changeworklife.com/142, that's changeworklife.com/142, for episode 142. I've mentioned in the past that there's a couple of exercises on my website which can really help you to start thinking about what direction you might want your career to go in. And one of those exercises really encourages you to think about the future. You pick four key areas of your life. So, it might be work, it might be social, it might be health, it might be financial, whatever is important to you. And you jot down how you would like each of those four sections of your life to look like in five years' time. And this is something which you can do, not just in isolation yourself, but you could also do it with your spouse or partner, to see where you're on the same page, and where things might be a bit different, where you've got perhaps different aspirations. Alternatively, if you do it yourself, then it might be something which you can show them to demonstrate where your thought process is and where you're coming from. So, if you'd like to get a hold of those exercises, you'll find them at changeworklife.com/happy, H-A-P-P-Y, that's changeworklife.com/happy. Or just click on the link at the top of our website which says Find Career Happiness. The episode in two weeks' time is inspired by a conversation I had with someone who asked me, 'Jeremy, why is it you never interview any failures on your podcast?' And this really got me thinking, well, what does it mean to be a failure? What does failure look like? How can you know if you're a failure, unless you've actually defined what success looks like? It's a great interview, so make sure that you have subscribed to the show, if you haven't already, and I can't wait to see you then. Cheers. Bye.