Episode 154: Protecting your career during a recession – with Jelena Radonjic of WhatWork

Episode 154: Protecting your career during a recession - with Jelena Radonjic of WhatWork

Jeremy Cline 0:00
How do you approach your career during a time of economic uncertainty? Is now the time just to keep your head down, work hard, maybe see what you can do to make yourself indispensable to your employer? Should you even be thinking about changing jobs or even changing career when there's so much economic uncertainty? What can you do to survive or even thrive during a recession? Listen in to find the answers to these questions, and so much more. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work Life.

Jeremy Cline 0:47
Hello, and welcome to Change Work Life, the podcast where we're all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. If you want to know how you can enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life, you're in the right place. What can you do about a recession? Well, unless you're a senior politician or a central banker, you probably feel pretty powerless. It's not like you can do anything which is going to affect the economy. But what about things a bit closer to home? What about your job? Your career? Do you just keep your head down, work hard and wait for things to get better? Or can you be a bit more proactive and take action to help your career survive, or even thrive in a recession? Does it even make sense to think about changing jobs? This week, I'm delighted to welcome back to the podcast Jelena Radonjic to help answer these questions. Jelena is an award-winning career fulfilment and leadership coach who helps conscious aspiring professionals thrive in the careers they love, one of whom was me. Jelena and I worked together a couple of years ago, and it's fair to say I wouldn't be offering coaching myself had I not had Jelena helping me. Jelena, welcome back to the podcast.

Jelena Radonjic 1:58
Thank you so much, Jeremy. Lovely, lovely to see you again. And thank you for the lovely intro.

Jeremy Cline 2:04
So, you were last on in August 2020, episode 49, if listeners want to go back and find out a bit more about your backstory, but why don't you give us a quick rundown on what's changed for you and your business since then?

Jelena Radonjic 2:17
Sure, gladly. In retrospect, 2020 was, well, obviously, a very turbulent year for a lot of people. For my business, actually, it was a record year at the time, because I experienced not just a huge interest but a huge influx of clients, people who were, at the time, during the lockdowns, having some time to rethink and re-evaluate their lives and careers. Obviously, some people lost their jobs or were fearing loss of a job. But also, I'd say majority, at least that I spoke with, were just thinking to themselves, 'Is this what I want to be doing?' Because for the first time probably in many decades, in a particular setting, people were made to stop their daily activities and reflect. So, I see that as the silver lining of the pandemic and lockdowns, and I get the sense that a lot of people actually started to pay attention to their lives and their work life, as they should. And as a result, a lot of people came to me to work with me, to get both coaching and guidance, which resulted in career transitions, career progression, people starting their own businesses, interestingly, solopreneurship, so yeah, a very interesting and fruitful period, which continued. And then, in particular, I'd say 2022 has been extremely busy, and I've had a record number of clients to date.

Jeremy Cline 3:49
Fantastic. That's really good to hear. So, you mentioned the pandemic. Now, as we record, hopefully, the worst of it, in terms of lockdowns and people's concerns about health and that kind of thing, seem to be behind us, he says advisedly and slightly cautiously. Having said that, we now appear to be going into an area of some economic uncertainty. There's talk of recession, with recession may come job losses, people are starting to get a little bit uncertain about what the future holds professionally. During times of uncertainty, when you don't really know what's going to happen, I think people often have a tendency just to jump into doing something, people feel like they have to do something. What, if anything, might people do before the doing bit to make sure that they're actually taking the right action, and they're not just jumping in and doing something for the sake of it?

Jelena Radonjic 4:52
A very correct observation, I'd say, and a great question, Jeremy. I think we're all human, and we also come to internal pressures. And I see this a lot with my clients, where this internal pressure is such that they have to constantly be doing something. But quantity doesn't equate to quality, necessarily, and sometimes can be counterproductive. In other words, what I'd suggest is a period of reflection and evaluation, which doesn't have to last, obviously, for months or years, but rather taking a deliberate and thoughtful approach, looking back at your career, perhaps highlighting some of the achievements and milestones, so that you remember what you're capable of, which is very helpful when people start to experience lack of confidence, because we all forget, and often, we tend to even minimise or dismiss our own achievements. And then, also looking forward, thinking about what it is that I want now, and if I'm looking for another opportunity, or a different job, or even changing companies, how do I make sure that this is in line with my medium term, let's say, career plan, rather than, as you said, jumping into something just for the sake of doing something or changing. And just as a metaphor that occurred to me, it's almost like, rather than looking back over your shoulder, trying to escape from something in fear and the pressure and move away from it, it is much more about looking forward and visualising even what kind of work life slash job slash career you want to have in the future. The proverbial and a bit corny, where do you see yourself in two years, but I think that's still necessary as one of the guiding principles, to at least be able to visualise and to have a couple of clear pillars that you want to put in place and ensure that they kind of delineate the path that you're going to take in the next couple of years. So, looking back briefly to get the positives out, but then thinking what can I do in the future with this.

Jeremy Cline 7:22
And you mentioned medium-term career plan, and I'm sure we could probably fill this entire episode with how you might come up with what that could look like. But just briefly, so when you say medium term, what do you mean? And when you say career plan, how much planning are we talking about here? How much is it sort of just an idea, oh, this might be nice, or how much is it this is what I want to do, and these are the 10 steps I'm going to do to get there?

Jelena Radonjic 7:46
Well, I think, first of all, clarity on what it is that you really want. But then, this can be broken down into many different components, and probably, you remember some of the work we've done together, which is looking at the job role or the content of your work, so that would be the sort of most immediate thing, what do you want your days to look like, what do you want to be doing, and then broadening that funnel a bit into the team and environment, what kind of environment and team and boss I want to have, or what kind of company I want to work for. And then, going even a bit wider in terms of the industry or parts of the business that you want to be involved in and looking at the impact of that business, but throughout there needs to be in alignment, you need to be in alignment with the job role and the environment, including company culture, very important, and then broader aspects, ideally, I know not a lot of people think about that, but ultimately, that's also important to be aligned with the industry you're working in, to be sharing the values, to be doing the work that aligns with your values. As an example, I've had clients who changed careers somewhat, because they said, 'I want to work for a company that reverses climate change as opposed to contributing to climate change', for example. It's that clarity, and as for steps, yes, steps need to be planned to a certain extent. But on the other hand, I would just say it's about planning and then doing and planning and doing, rather than being in analysis-paralysis and not doing anything, which is the other extreme away from constantly doing something just for the sake of it.

Jeremy Cline 9:39
Completely. And just on values, that work which we did together was probably the most impactful, because that was the thing which showed me why some business ideas I'd had, which I still think were actually pretty decent ideas, weren't right for me, because they didn't fit with my values, and when I tried to do them, and I've found it difficult, it was when we did the values work that that all started to make sense. I don't think it's something that people really think about, I suspect it's something that, unless you've really looked into it, you don't really understand, it's not something that necessarily people understand immediately what it is. But it's so valuable. It's incredibly valuable work. Let's first talk to the person who, they're actually pretty satisfied where they are, they don't really want to change jobs, they like the work they do, they like where they're doing it, they like their colleagues, they feel supported at work, but they are looking around, and they're looking around slightly nervously. And we found out during the pandemic that you can be employee of the month and still lose your job, it's really not your fault. So, against that background, what, if anything, can someone do to position themselves so that they might perhaps be less vulnerable to redundancy, if things take a turn for the worse at the company they work for?

Jelena Radonjic 11:01
That's a great question. And I love how you started with this scenario. Because it's true. Yes, a lot of people are pretty happy, which is great. But then, I'd say, I would advise them to work in general on their career development and career management. Which means, generally, almost always working on a dual track. One is internally, how do I build and strengthen my internal networks, including allies, champions, sponsors, advocates, mentors, mind you, a mentor can be outside as well? And then, how do I build and strengthen my external networks, which is professionals in the same industry, competitors, recruiters, generally the whole environment or ecosystem of that professional's work, really? And then, when I talk about network, obviously, I also talk about visibility, which means how do I keep my visibility, how do I keep raising my profile, how do I keep adding value or relevance, so that people think of me, when they think of X, Y, Z, let's say, an area of expertise, for example, or when they think about, okay, we need a solution for this huge problem, let's talk to Jeremy because we know he's the best person to deal with this. So, it is about positioning yourself within your networks, cultivating your networks, which means not reaching out only when you need something, but engaging in meaningful conversations, information exchange, and keeping this visibility. Now, visibility, as you say yourself, we could be talking about it in a completely different episode, there's a lot I could say about that, but it's generally about contributing and showcasing some interesting work. It could be thought leadership, it could be contributing some news relevant to your industry, talking about the projects you've successfully completed and including your clients and colleagues in a hashtag, whether that's LinkedIn, I mean, mostly, it's LinkedIn, but obviously, other people use some other platforms or even specific forums. So, it is really being active with your personal brand. So, these are some of the key aspects. There's a lot more to it, but let's start with this.

Jeremy Cline 13:40
Sometimes in the workplace, you might see someone who's trying to position themselves to make themselves indispensable. So, maybe they are the only person who does something or the only person who knows how to do something, which can actually be quite frustrating if that person's on holiday. I mean, realistically, can someone make themselves so that they are indispensable, so that they are safe from being made redundant?

Jelena Radonjic 14:10
Yeah, that's a million dollar question, Jeremy, I believe. I think we have to take a look from the perspective of the employer. I reckon, and that's what I see, that well-structured organisations will tend to ensure that no one is indispensable in the sense that they hold the keys to the knowledge and information and expertise that is just in their head, so obviously, everything has to be documented, other people have to be involved and educated, succession plan needs to be in place. So, from that perspective, I think that's pretty rare. I have seen it, actually, some clients tell me this, but not really often, that the company is really vulnerable, because literally only they know certain things, and it hasn't been passed on and so forth. What I've seen with those people is, actually, that they would prefer to be able to share that and develop others, because that actually will bring them more visibility, exposure, and possibly push them into a leadership role, as opposed to being a lone expert, holding the keys to some very specific expertise. So, just to balance that out, I'd say, by all means, as one of the critical things people should do in recession, and in general, but particularly in recession, is to keep upskilling to keep their edge sharp. So, by all means, do invest in your education, in building your expertise, it could be learning on the job, your company may be sponsoring courses, but also invest in yourself. And that's what I see with a lot of my clients, whether they take agile qualifications or project management, or whatever is relevant recently, I see a lot of courses that are about application of artificial intelligence and so forth, within the fields, respective fields of work, but by all means, keep upskilling and keep your edge sharp. So, that goes pretty much without saying. But on the other hand, my personal view, and I've seen this work better, sharing your knowledge, developing others, actually gives better results, the attitude of giving and cooperation or collaboration, rather than kind of hogging the thing for yourself.

Jeremy Cline 16:42
Picking up on that, I mean, the theme that's been running through everything that you've said so far is one of positivity. So, be positive about, it's about developing, about sharing, about upskilling. So, the idea that you're going to help your cause, protect yourself by becoming the only person who knows how to do something, and even becoming defensive when someone asks if they can help with that or learn how to do that, then maybe it'll work short term, but I suspect, in the long term, it's probably not a great strategy.

Jelena Radonjic 17:22
I agree. At least that's my personal opinion. But yeah, honestly, I've seen people flourish in their roles and progress in their careers if they cultivate the attitude of collaboration, cooperation, developing others. That's, after all, what makes a great leader, and those people seem to effortlessly move into leadership positions, because people want them as leaders.

Jeremy Cline 17:50
Networking is another thing which I've spent a number of hours on this podcast talking about in the past. But one thing, one specific thing I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on is internal networking, where it's much more of a remote environment. I mean, that's something certainly, I find, if I work from home, I'll tend only to speak to people because there's something I need to speak to them about. You don't tend to phone people for a chat. Whereas if I'm in the office, you hear the conversations, someone starts talking about Bake Off and you join in, and it's much easier to engage in that sort of thing. For someone for whom perhaps the majority or even all of their work is remote, have you got any quick tips that they can employ in order to maintain this internal network?

Jelena Radonjic 18:44
Again, great question and something super relevant. Earlier last year, around November time, I believe, I gave a workshop on communication for hybrid teams. And that's pretty much all about that. So, I'd say good principles of networking, and I'll share a few with you, apply when we're talking remote as well, but even more so in the sense that you need to put a bit more thought, and let's not say effort, but let's say intention into connecting with people, if you're not sharing the physical space. These good principles are, be curious about people genuinely, and love people, and love connecting, be interesting and interested, by this I mean, be ready to share something about yourself. When I say be interesting, whether it's an anecdote or a personal thing, obviously, in the appropriate context, not out of the blue, but also be interested in other people. Generally, people love to talk about themselves, and I know that that's not easy when you're in between meetings, and deadlines are looming. However, creating pockets of time and space to connect with colleagues is very important. Some companies do that. They organise coffees, coffee chats, or whatever, under whatever guise, some online activities and so forth, where people just connect. Actually, there are other types of kind of round robin kind of thing connection, where you're paired up with someone that you don't know from a different part of the business every month, I can't remember who does that, a couple of big companies where my clients work. And I thought that was actually brilliant. It's a great thing to learn about other people in other parts of the business, because you will probably find out something that normally you wouldn't know about. Equally, you can share information with them. And also, it's a great opportunity to practice networking, because you're seeing someone that you don't know anything about, pretty much nothing, but you work for the same organisation, so you still have some common grounds. So, yeah, I would say being intentional about it and having genuine interest in people and appreciation for people, that sort of ideal case scenario, sometimes in reality, it doesn't work like that, and we're all busy, and it gets difficult, but it's not impossible. I'd mention very quickly just one other thing, which is a new phenomenon that we are witnessing, the great resignation, and quiet quitting, and all these different things happening in a turbulent world of work and careers in the last three years. But something called the proximity bias has caught my attention, which is purely related to this, am I sharing the physical space with someone, or do I ever see them in person. And apparently, proximity bias has been identified as a tendency of managers and leaders to subconsciously favourise people whom they see more often, probably physically, but even if it's not physically, someone who is top of their mind, because they're just in touch with them more often, and then they tend to give them better opportunities, more interesting projects, and they tend to get promoted quicker. So, that's a big thing to think about, both for managers and leaders, how to minimise that, but also for individual employees, no matter what level they're at, to ask themselves, 'What can I do to be more visible, to connect more frequently and authentically, and to add value during these conversations?'

Jeremy Cline 22:41
Let's move on to talk to the person who is thinking about leaving, either they want to stay in the same industry, or maybe they are thinking about a complete career change. But they're concerned that, doing it during a recession, at times of uncertainty, is just a bit of a foolish thing to do. How can they decide whether to go for it, or whether it's better to keep their head down and stay where they are for a bit longer and ride it out for a bit? Does it make sense to have a more defensive attitude when there is economic uncertainty?

Jelena Radonjic 23:24
Yeah, great question. My personal view is that it's super important to look at your own situation, and to make sure that you're happy and fulfilled where you are. And if you are looking outside, then obviously, you know why you're looking outside, and ideally, why you want to move where you want to move. Just as we're speaking, I'm actually looking at a slide from my recent presentation from my webinar, and the slide is called 'Should I Stay or Should I Go?' Because I talked about this dilemma, how do you decide when is the right time to go. And people most often look at externals, like am I going to be paid more, is it an advancement or a promotion, maybe how interesting my work will be and so forth. But also, what I advise people to do is to really look at, to assess the current situation and ask themselves, 'Am I actually growing and flourishing, am I stagnating, is this a plateau, or am I actually not thriving at all? I'm languishing, it's completely the opposite.' And then, one question that is very much overlooked is, does this feel good? Because people often think, and they're very much in their head, but I always invite them to also connect to how they feel, whether it is their current role and current organisation, or somewhere else perhaps where they're interviewing, and also engage that part of themselves in the decision making process, in terms of risking, being more courageous, and so forth, because it's recession times, and so on. Someone who is in a job, first of all, they're in a good position, unless it's absolutely horrendous, and they need to leave right now, which, obviously, puts a lot of urgency in the situation. But I'd ask everyone to first appreciate that they're still in a good place, they're being paid, they are working, and that in itself gives them a foundation or a platform from which they can lean forward and look into other opportunities, and then decide whether it is the time to leave by assessing their current level of satisfaction and fulfilment, both mentally and emotionally, and where they're going. Another thing is, if we're looking at recession, there's a need to look at job longevity and prospect. And also, if you're transitioning into a different company, or even different type of company, what are the prospects? If you're going to a start-up, is it well established, or could it crash tomorrow? Are you naturally a risk taker, and you're okay with being a bit uncomfortable and taking risks? Or is job security and generally stability your top value? So, all of these things would really influence your decision. I hope I've given you the answer, a long answer to your simple question.

Jeremy Cline 26:46
Well, I think what I took from that is that a lot of what you said, I think, applies whatever the circumstances. So, does this feel good? Am I growing? Am I enjoying what I'm doing? That's the kind of thing that really applies regardless of the circumstances, the wider circumstances at the time. And it's possibly this extra element of risk which could be relevant, and then it comes down to the individual as to whether they're comfortable with the risk and what risks they might be taking. So, I think, your example, if you're moving to a start-up, is the start-up going to be more vulnerable during a recession? Well, you know, that's something that you'd have to assess. But that might be the thing to think about. But that's really a kind of an external layer just to add on, and there's no reason why you can't start doing all of the other thinking, yeah, in whatever circumstances you're in.

Jelena Radonjic 27:49
But I'd say, I'd go back quickly to best practice, good principles of career management, which is really keeping clarity, being clear on what it is you want, and building your networks, building your personal brand, and generally keeping a finger on the pulse of the employment market, who is hiring, who is firing, what's happening in my industry, are my competitors or my company's competitors doing better or worse, and just taking all of that into consideration. As a very quick example, I've worked with a client who was at Goldman Sachs, actually, and as you know, they, amongst many others, have had pretty massive layoffs. So, he was there for more than 13 years, and we started working initially, earlier, early 2020, on preparing him for career progression. But then, things just turned differently, unexpectedly, I think around September, or was it October time. Anyhow, he was one of the many that were laid off. However, because of the work we did together, he had all the components in place that I mentioned, and more, and was already interviewing as a process of basically, yes, career management and seeing what else is out there, and if my plan A doesn't work, in other words, if I don't get promoted, then maybe this promotion can happen if I transition somewhere else. And that's also something that often happens for those who are looking for career progression. They get promotion in a different company, even during layoffs and recession. So, anyhow, this client received three offers as a result of this, and he chose the one which was best fitting with his values and his career direction, and is very happy now in a new role.

Jeremy Cline 29:43
I feel that the answer to this question is, what anyone else thinks is none of your business, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Friends and family might look at you and go, 'Why on earth are you thinking about changing jobs at a time of recession? You got a good job, you're well paid, you're secured, just keep your head down and carry on doing it.' Or some people might be going for an interview, and they might be asked, 'Why do you want to change jobs now?' And it might feel a little bit hard to answer that question when in difficult economic circumstances. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Jelena Radonjic 30:16
I think this question, you know, why do you want to change now, I mean, the addition of now, I guess, potentially puts more pressure on the person to answer, but generally, the answer should really reflect, in my mind, your true reasons, which is, in your company, I see better potential for growth, or if the person is going for the next level role, like my client from Goldman Sachs did, he actually landed an executive director role with a different bank, whereas that wasn't happening in his original bank. So, clearly show what this new opportunity brings to you that, at the moment, you don't have or cannot see happening for a while in your current organisation. That's why people change. Sometimes people change because they outgrow their role. So, again, it's not just about security, it's about growing, of course, and taking risks. Because as you mentioned before, it could be last in, first out. However, I'd say, again, depending on the level of the role and how you perform in the probationary period, or the first three to six months, also plays a big part. So, why do you want to change? I think the person needs to be very clear on why they want to change, what is it that they are not having in their current employer that is really vital to them, which is, again, about knowing yourself and what it is that you want. If you're just interviewing for the sake of interviewing, that's a little bit more difficult to answer. But you can answer hypothetically. Obviously, you don't want to say to the other employer, 'I'm just checking you out', even if you are. So, you need to prepare really some valid reasons to show why this other new opportunity is more attractive

Jeremy Cline 32:21
Jelena, I'm conscious that you're pressed for time, and you've provided enormous value in the half hour that we've been speaking. What resources can you point people to, either externally or your own, you've mentioned your own webinars, that people can use to help them in this sort of situation?

Jelena Radonjic 32:42
Sure. Well, first of all, thank you, it's been wonderful, and I think we opened quite a lot of interesting topics. We could probably talk for a lot longer. When you mentioned webinars, yes, I run them, well, the intention is to run them once a month. In January, I ran how to accelerate your career progression, which I think will be very relevant to your listeners of your podcast, and is very closely linked to this topic as well. So, I'd say, I invite people to follow me on LinkedIn and see when new webinars are coming. In terms of external resources, as you may know, Jeremy, I'm very set on working on your mindset, and even more so when external circumstances are difficult. So, one of the books that I would recommend is Positive Intelligence by Shirzad Chamine. He's also the author of Saboteur Test, which I use with my clients, which again, is about self-reflection, building self-awareness, about some mechanisms, patterns of thoughts and behaviours that are not helpful. Taking this further, the author in this book actually gives you specific strategies as to how to deal with these limiting beliefs. And I think this is very powerful in moments of crisis and recession, because the more you strengthen yourself, as you said yourself, you can't really change external that much, even politicians can't apparently these days, but then, focus on yourself and strengthen yourself internally. So, Shirzad Chamine's Positive Intelligence, I recommend. As for my own resources, for those of you who want to look at my website, they will find the Career Fitness quiz, so they can see how fit their career is at the moment, which again, is pretty relevant.

Jeremy Cline 34:35
And what's your website? I'll put a link to the show notes, but what's the website that you'd like to send people to?

Jelena Radonjic 34:40
It's www.whatwork.co.uk.

Jeremy Cline 34:42
There'll be a link to that in the show notes. Jelena, lovely to speak to you again. As always, a wealth of knowledge and helpful tips in what may be difficult times. Thanks so much for coming back on the show.

Jelena Radonjic 35:00
Thank you so much, Jeremy.

Jeremy Cline 35:03
Okay, hope you enjoyed that interview with Jelena Radonjic. Well, this was one of those interviews where, had we had more time, we probably could have talked for about triple the amount of time that we did. There's just so many topics here that we could have dived into in more detail. Having said that, if I had to pick one thing, one piece of advice that I think Jelena was giving anyone who's a bit concerned about their career during a time of recession, it's do the work on yourself, which you could do regardless or not of whether we're in a recession. Taking a deliberate and thoughtful approach, looking back to see what you're capable of and what you've enjoyed in the past, looking forward to think about what your future career might look like, internal and external networking, raising your visibility, upskilling, none of this is unique when times are perhaps a bit more uncertain, and job losses could be coming down the track. All that does, really, is highlight the importance of doing this kind of work on yourself. And also, we talked about a lot of stuff, and that can seem quite intimidating. Suddenly, there's all this extra stuff which you might think that you have to do. But you can give it some thought, you can think about how you can do some of this stuff, what's the first thing perhaps that you could do. Maybe what's the one habit that you can start to implement, perhaps it's arranging a monthly coffee with colleagues in your office. Things can definitely feel more urgent when there is uncertainty in the air. But I just loved what Jelena was saying about doing things with intention and without fear. Taking action from a place of fear is just an awful place to start. So, I hope all that was helpful. If you want to dive into some of the topics, then in my back catalogue of podcast episodes, I've definitely done episodes on things like networking, internal and external visibility, that kind of thing, so just have a look on the website, changeworklife.com, take a look through the back catalogue, and you will find plenty of stuff there. Jelena has also given me some ideas for things that I can cover in future episodes, but if there's anything in particular that you'd like me to cover, maybe there was something that we talked about that you'd like me to dive into in a bit more detail, just get in touch, changeworklife.com/contact, you'll find the contact form there, so just let me know. There's a full set of show notes for this episode on the website as well at changeworklife.com/154, that's changeworklife.com/154, and you'll find the transcript there and a summary of everything that we talked about in this interview. I mentioned at the start of this episode how Jelena had helped me, she coached me, and how that work had been absolutely invaluable. It can be pretty overwhelming trying to figure out for yourself just what is the right thing for you to do. And that's one of the things that working with a coach can really help with. There's a lot of coaches out there, and it's beholden to you to find one who is going to be best for you, who is a fit for you. But if you think I might be that person, if you'd like to explore with me whether I might be able to help you, then do get in touch. You can arrange an initial 30-minute free coaching session with me, free, as I say, there's absolutely no cost to you, and you can arrange that on my website, changeworklife.com/coaching, that's changeworklife.com/coaching. You'll find a button there where you can begin your slot. In two weeks' time, we're continuing the theme of how you can best position yourself during times of economic uncertainty. And in the next episode, we're going to be looking at how freelancing, far from being a risky option, might actually be the safer option. There'll be a lot of food for thought, so if you haven't subscribed to the show, make sure you do so, you can hit the plus button in Apple Podcasts or hit Subscribe in whatever app you choose to listen to your podcasts on. Subscribe to the show, never miss an episode, and I can't wait to see you next time. Cheers. Bye.