Episode 12: I want to start my own business, but what is best for me? – with Dawn Fry

Business coach Dawn Fry explores how to design a business around your own lifestyle and how to avoid sacrificing personal happiness when we have so many competing demands.

Today’s guest

Dawn Fry, Lifestyle Business Champion

Websites: Dawn Fry, The Melting Pot

Facebook: The Melting Pot

Twitter: @makechoccies

Contact: dawn@dawnfry.co.uk

Dawn launched her first business in 2009 – offering chocolate workshops,  because she wanted to work with people and chocolate (two of her great loves) – and giving people a good time and creating a wonderful experience for them.

Her mission now is to spread the word about great customer service and customer experiences and help other business owners be fantastic for their customers and see the difference it makes to their business.

Dawn was nominated for Best Customer Service at the National Entrepreneurs Convention, and she’s subsequently gone on to win a Best Customer Service and Entrepreneur of the Year Award for 2013.  She’s a contributor to Customer Experience Magazine and is currently writing her first book on ‘getting sticky customers’.

What you’ll learn in this episode

  • The importance of finding a role which is a fit for you as well as the needs of your family
  • Leveraging your existing talents and experience and identifying and filling in the gaps
  • You only ever have to be one page ahead of everyone else
  • The empowering nature of having your own business
  • Creating a job that doesn’t feel like a job to create the best version of “you”
  • The importance of self-discovery
  • Investing in yourself

Resources mentioned in this episode

Please note that some of these are affiliate links and we may get a small commission in the event that you make a purchase.  This helps us to cover our expenses and is at no additional cost to you.

To see the resources recommended by all our guests, visit the Resources page.

Episode 12: I want to start my own business, but what is best for me? - with Dawn Fry

Dawn Fry
And I do remember getting that 'life is too short' feeling coming on, because of all the things we'd been through. And I think when I went back to work after lots of supporting people, I just - it was the final straw. I couldn't stay in something that just didn't work for me anymore because...

Jeremy Cline
We all have so many competing demands on our life that how can we make sure that we just don't sacrifice for those demands what we want, what we like, what we enjoy doing? Well, that's exactly what we explore in this episode. I'm Jeremy Cline. And this is Change Work Life.

Hello, and welcome to the Change Work Life podcast where we're all about beating the Sunday evening blues and looking forward to Mondays. You might have had the thought that starting your own business is something that you'd like to try, its maybe a way of getting out of the nine-to-five, of being your own boss. But where do you even start out? How do you work out what the right business is for you to start? My guest this week is Dawn Fry, and she helps people find out exactly that. So let's hear what she has to say. Hi, Dawn. Welcome to the show.

Dawn Fry
Hi, Jeremy. Thanks for having me. Very nice to be here.

Jeremy Cline
So Dawn, can you start by telling us what it is that you do?

Dawn Fry
Yes. I do rather a few things really. Actually predominantly my main business at the moment is chocolate, providing chocolate workshops. But I've recently started also providing startup advice for people who want to start their own businesses - a sort of online programme. It's very new and it's come about because in doing my chocolate workshops, which I've been doing for 10 years, I've also helped other people start their own chocolate businesses. They've followed my formula. And it's not a franchise as such, it's a business opportunity where I've taught them exactly what I do, and then let them go and do it. I don't sort of follow up with 'you've got to buy your chocolate from me' or anything like that. It's just encouraging people to have a go where they live. And this led me to believe not everyone, believe it or not, might want to work with chocolate! Surprisingly, some people don't like it even! So I just I'm totally inspired by helping others get started and I've decided that needs to be whatever it needs to be for them. Hence this new programme. But it literally is just launching as we speak, so I haven't actually put anyone through it yet, apart from through the chocolate route in the past.

Jeremy Cline
Well I've got lots of questions about sort of that route, you know, starting your own business. But going back a bit, how did you actually get into the chocolate making business in the first place? What were you doing before that and what led you to start doing that?

Dawn Fry
Way before children - I've got three children - way before children, I was a general manager at a professional body in London, which was sort of, if I look at career terms, that was probably the height of the career. I had quite a big team under me. We were doing lots of exciting things, lots of hours. And then I started to have children and it just didn't fit with my life. And so I left that behind. That was in London, and started doing various different jobs to fit around the needs of the family, really. So just prior to starting my own business, I was in people development, so lots of training. And a lot of the jobs that I've done - I was a bursar at a music school and various other things - sort of helped feed into what I do in my own business. But literally, I had a summer house at the end of my garden. And I thought to myself, there is a problem with me here. It's not that the jobs I go and do are awful. Because I used to get so frustrated in them, I used to take a job to fit around the needs of the family. And by nature that was often sort of beneath my skills if that doesn't sound too big headed, but you know, there was an element of fitting in versus something interesting. I just used to think 'grrr!!' all the time about these jobs, standing at the photocopier for hour after hour sometimes - sometimes it was very interesting - and I just thought the problem is me, and I need to fix the problem. And I knew then that I just needed to create something that would fit around the family. So all I had was a summer house at the end of the garden, the need to work with people - because I really love people - and all I'd come up with was an idea for food. I thought I love cooking, and I've got to follow a passion. And literally one day, I thought, oh, chocolate! Light bulb moment. You know, no more sophisticated than that, because I just thought it's probably something that everyone loves, like I did. I didn't have any history with it at all. And I just thought - there is an idea for a workshop. And it went from there really, I started investigating how I could do that. And my name is Dawn Fry. And you know, Fry's chocolate. I thought there was a nice little connection there, but no, there is no history of chocolate whatsoever in my family. Sadly, I'm not a chocolate dynasty! But it was literally what can I do? These are the things I like, how can I put that together and create a business?

Jeremy Cline
Was there any part of you when you had the job that you initially left when you had children - was there any part of you that thought, actually, I want to stay doing that? Did you think that maybe you could actually find a way of making that work around your life having children or was that just never going to happen?

Dawn Fry
I sort of tried a little bit. I do remember and I don't want to be overdramatic, but I do remember hanging around my husband's neck sobbing the first day I had to go in. It was such a 'Oh my god!' and I had already negotiated part-time work. But the nature of what I did, because it was a professional body, we had either breakfast meetings or after work meetings, or conferences, or we were travelling all around mostly the UK. But there was overnight stays and I was a breastfeeding mum and it was really tricky. And I just felt really pulled to be with the family more. I couldn't afford to leave my job on paper - but I am one of these slightly hot-headed people that something happened when I was there and I felt really aggrieved and I couldn't get back and look after my first child in the way I wanted to. And I, I just went in and said that's it, I'm going. I hadn't got another job when I left. But luckily, I secured one in the time it took for me to hand in my notice and work my notice period.

Jeremy Cline
Can you talk a bit more about the thought process because you said that you did lots of jobs, but they weren't working for you and you felt the need to find something that did work for you? What made you think that this wasn't just normal and this was just what - you know - what work was like? What made you think, actually, no, I'm going to try and find something different?

Dawn Fry
I think I was... there were a few things that happened actually. There were some life events that also led to it. Because by the time I started my own business, I had three children. So the juggling and the trying to hold down a job was okay but it was quite full on and busy because there was always often someone ill or you know, there was something going on that made your commitment to a normal job if you like sometimes a bit more tricky. But I think I took jobs, which I alluded to before, where there was an element of using my brain and being engaged and it being interesting versus mundanity, because I don't know if I it was my fault and I went for a job. I honestly believe that a full-on job like I'd had before was something that was too scary an option. So something that would have been more fulfilling, mentally, I steered away from to some extent, I think, because I believed it would take me away from my predominant, sort of need to be with the family. But that could have just been my interpretation. And also, while I was in those jobs, we had some family illness. So my father was very ill. And my husband was very ill. And I had to support them through lots of hospital visits and treatment for some months. And I do remember getting that 'life is too short' feeling coming on, because of all the things we've been through. And I think when I went back to work after lots of supporting people, that was the final straw. I couldn't stay in something that just didn't work for me anymore, because I'd seen this sort of how life can be - not curtailed, both of my dad and husband are still with us, thankfully - but you know that life experience really made me feel I've got to do something different that makes me happier.

Jeremy Cline
So how did you get from the 'I've got to do something' to 'I'm going to start my own chocolate workshops'? You mentioned passion, but there's I mean, what's the thought process actually getting from well to okay, well, I want to start my own business for a start - how did you identify that that would fit in? And then yes, you had the passion for the chocolate, but where did the thought that you could actually turn this into a business come from?

Dawn Fry
Well I had some local inspiration. I knew someone that was running flower workshops, from premises nearby. And I'd seen someone startup or about to start up sewing workshops, so I'd seen that model in action. Also, because I was working in people development, we did lots of courses and so I knew sort of how to structure a workshop if you like, how to get things going and flowing and sort of how hosting a group of people was something I had some experience with. And it was literally sort of piecing those things together, making chocolates to sell - lots of people have a go at that - and often if they're a bit nervous to stand in front of a group of people that's sort of a safe option if you like. But I did think you've got to make an awful lot of chocolates to make a living when you charge x amount. So there was some sort of business thinking behind it as well. But it was really weighing up what I felt were my talents if you like, versus what I didn't want to do. I had to go and learn how to work with chocolate, for instance, that wasn't something that I knew anything about. So I had to get on a course. So I started planning all of this while I was in my job. And actually, this was at the height of the recession. And I had the idea literally the light bulb moment in a January, and in June, I was made redundant. No redundancy package. I hadn't been there long enough, I hadn't actually left. So this was an opportunity presenting itself to me. I didn't actually have to say, I'm going to leave this job - the job left me. And when I got called into the office, I was the only person who cheered and said 'Yey!' And he said everyone else has been crying. No, I don't mean to be flippant, but you know for me, although it was a dangerous time if you like because everywhere was - this was 2009, so the recession really hit in 2008 - everyone was sort of being careful. And so many people said to me 'launching a new business, are you mad?' But it was a now or never moment. So a few things happened to make me take the plunge.

Jeremy Cline
Those people - well actually first of all, what was the reaction of your family? I mean to you doing this. Were they would they expecting that you would go ahead and do it? Did they see it as you know, you kind of had this pipe dream until this redundancy moment and you thought that it was going to happen or were they going 'Oh thank goodness, finally she's actually going to go and do it'?

Dawn Fry
Not so much of the 'Thank goodness.' My husband was really supportive. He always is supportive. And we had to refurbish our summer house. We used to call it the shed before then, and now we've rechristened it - to make it sound a bit posher! - but it was a family den. So it needed some work. So literally, we were all hands on deck. So it was sort of a very busy time. So immediate family - my children were very young, so they didn't really get what I was doing, particularly - some of my family were 'oh I don't think that will work' - sort of wider family. And some of my friends I think all thought well you know, she's gonna play this out and go and get another job. I was quite lucky. I didn't have any funding and I didn't have any money behind me. So I did have to start very organically. And after two or three months, the old job did call up and asked me if I could do something with them on the marketing side of the business. And I did a day a week for them. And that helped keep me going, because it sort of was some guaranteed income while I built up the chocolate business. So I did fund it through a part time job.

Jeremy Cline
And you mentioned a few people who are a bit sceptical about you starting this. Did you have any of that scepticism internally - did you have any moments where you thought I can't do this, what am I doing?

Dawn Fry
I was petrified! I was absolutely petrified. That thing, that old cliche about feeling the fear. I was so uncomfortable. And my biggest fear was around my chocolate knowledge actually, because I literally went on a two day course to start with to learn how to do tempering and I launched after that. I did go on some other courses about how to taste chocolate. I read everything I could and I frantically was researching. I did have a very lovely mentor, a friend of ours, her mother had run some courses. And she said to me, you only ever have to be one page ahead of everyone else. And that was lovely advice. But I just thought, someone's going to say to me, you fraud, how dare you take my money and deliver this chocolate workshop? You don't know enough about chocolate. And that was my biggest fear. And my first ever workshop - I did some guinea pig runs, and I did one children's workshop - was from Tesco. They had a training team. So they were professional trainers. That was my first workshop and I just thought 'Oh no!' but I just know - sorry, I'm going off at tangents here - but my biggest passion has always been and continues to be the customer experience. If I'm going to take some money off of someone, I have to do my utmost to give them the best possible experience. And that has really helped me in my fear factor. Because when I have been worried, I've just had to say - if I go into a workshop go, and I'm so nervous, I just don't think that's a good experience for people - I think they need someone who's bright and bubbly, and who's going to make them feel at ease. So I've just had to pretend sometimes, and then actually, the confidence has flowed from there because once you get used to it and better at it, and you get lovely feedback, you know that that's the right thing for your customers - or certainly has been my experience.

Jeremy Cline
I've got to ask, how was your first workshop with one of the top two or three supermarkets in the country?

Dawn Fry
Completely sleepless night! It was at an alternative venue, they weren't at mine. And they walked in, they filed in - there was about eight of them. And one of the ladies said to me, 'I don't really like chocolate'. That was the first thing I sort of remember hearing. And I just thought, 'Oh, no!' because of course, all her colleagues had persuaded her - you sometimes get that in a corporate setup, because it's sort of a general vote for doing it. And I just said, I sort of thought, Well, I'm just gonna have to treat this a bit like I would my children. I went, 'Oh, bad luck. I bet you know, someone who loves them'. And on I went, and I think I, I don't know, I think I over-delivered a bit, I have to say, but I got some lovely feedback and lovely testimonials. And I just, you know, tried to fake it a bit, the confidence - definitely!

Jeremy Cline
And how did it come up in the first place that you ended up doing your first workshop there?

Dawn Fry
Well I'm not a technical person, and I had someone in the playground - I'm still with them today - who had set up a new company, she was doing websites. So one of the first things I got up and running was a website. Way before I was sort of not ready, but it was up there. And they literally found me. They were searching chocolate workshops, and I came up. So it was the power of the, you know, the internet there.

Jeremy Cline
Wow!

Dawn Fry
That's quite something isn't it!

Jeremy Cline
Thinking how, you know, a brand new website, you know - maybe it was different back then - but you know, the days of search engine optimization, and that sort of think if you were googling chocolate workshop now, would you come up with a brand new website? I mean, did you have any, or did the friend who put the the website together, have any experience of SEO and that sort of thing?

Dawn Fry
I may be doing them a disservice - no. I sort of certainly know about it more now. But I do think in the very early days, it was a much more unique proposition. There are a lot more chocolate workshops now. And they really weren't back in the day. You could go to London to a hen party - I don't even think, because I know Hotel Chocolat do them now and they weren't before - so they must have put 'chocolate workshops' and 'Hertfordshire', because they were local. And it literally was being in at a time when there wasn't really anyone else doing it. Not locally anyway.

Jeremy Cline
So I want to talk a bit about how this has now evolved into your new venture. So just talk me through that. So you've started talking about how to do chocolate workshops to other people. So you're training people how to do that and what's the take up been on that? Is that something that people are really keen to learn - have you've got a big market for that sort of thing?

Dawn Fry
No, I've only got a handful of people that have done it. That may be my marketing skills, I don't know. Because really, a lot of my audience - a lot of my customers - are local based. And I cannot keep training people where I live. It's not ethical to me or to them. So I've got three people who have gone through the training with me. One that's Northwest, one in Surrey, and one near Watford. And at times a lot of people have asked me if I will train them, but they are too local. So I've had to say no. I have done other things for other people as well. So I've taken bits of what I do, because I've met people in the chocolate industry. I'm about to train some people, for instance, on how to work in schools, that's something I do. So I've sort of broken off little bits of training as well to tailor it for different people because of what they might need because they've got chocolate knowledge, but have never done that before. And I've forgotten the nature of your question now! Oh, how did I come to train the people was it?

Jeremy Cline
It's how how you've gone from that to what you're now starting?

Dawn Fry
I see. So my chocolate training is called 'a business in a chocolate box', and it involves three days training one to one with the person and a manual and it is chocolate and business training, and I could not believe how incredibly empowering I found that to try and encourage others to have a go what I do. I think that running my own business has been so much more than running my own business it's been - I often call it one of the best things I ever did. And I mean that because of the nature of the things you get to do that I couldn't ever believe possible. How confident it makes you, how out of your comfort zone and sort of growth inspiring it makes you. And it's that element and that sort of having freedom and flexibility in your life is something that has been so key to me. And so I love trying to infuse and get others going. And when they come back to me and say 'Dawn this is fantastic I'm loving it', it just, oh - very selfishly - it gives me such a buzz and I wanted to create something that was just, I can encourage more. more people to have a go at doing this - if they'd be brave enough to have a go,

Jeremy Cline
What transformation are your clients and your new venture going to go through?

Dawn Fry
Haha, what a question! That's a good one. I don't know. I don't know what transformation they'll go through. I know they'll be very fearful. My typical avatar, the person I'm looking to help is probably someone of a similar age to me, which is a middle aged lady, who I think has either lost their way a little bit or lost confidence because they have given over their lives to other things. It may be that they've given their life to a job and they've had enough of that now, or they have taken second fiddle in, you know, maybe a husband or partner has had a bigger job. Or maybe they've just been bringing up children. And, and for me the transformation is to create a job that doesn't feel like a job, that is following a passion that is giving you a flexible lifestyle. And that is boosting your confidence and making you - if I'm not sounding to twee - the sort of best version of you, because that is my experience. It's been something that has made me find myself in a way that no other job ever managed to. I may not have found the right job, of course!

Jeremy Cline
And so this is through the medium of starting a new business. I mean, this is what you're encouraging people to do is effectively not to find their dream job but effectively to create their dream job around them through starting the business?

Dawn Fry
Yes.

Jeremy Cline
Is this something that everyone has in them, because starting your own business, it's quite a scary prospect. I mean, especially if we're used to a regular income, if you've got family, you've got bills to pay, starting from scratch, finding something which other people are going to pay you for? Is this something that you think everyone can do or does it not suit everyone and there's certain characteristics or skills that you need in order to to make this work?

Dawn Fry
I do believe not everyone would do it. I believe everyone could. But not everyone wants to. For some people that security is absolutely a must. And I do think it can be very difficult, you know, sometimes, especially if you're not used to that juggling finances and cash flow and things. One of the things I try and say to people is I'm really focusing quite on a lifestyle style business really, because that's what I have created to some extent. So often I'm trying to encourage people to maybe do it alongside something else and then see how it goes. Because that may be right for some and it may not be right for others and I know for some it will be a huge busyness to create an extra thing on top. But I think sometimes fear and the fear around money - and we do have to pay our bills - can make it very difficult to start a business. So I think about my model where I did a part-time job and got my business up and running. I didn't start that way. But that was circumstance. But certainly it can be done. It can be done together with something else. So it might be a case of talking to work and reducing hours a bit to enable you to do something. So you're not doing everything at once, but something like that. And you alluded to something about the type of person and I do believe lots of people think, 'Oh, I'm not like them. I couldn't do that because I don't look like her and act like her. And I couldn't speak in front of this or do that'. Well, I believe that everyone has their own ways and their own talents to bring to the party and it isn't all about rah rah rah in front of everyone. Some of the businesses will be - I know someone at the moment whose business is helping people with end of life plans. So it's all about planning a death. Now if she were, and all the things you have to get in place to make that smooth and easy for all your friends and family around you. Now she is not a rah rah. She's a very quiet and considered person as you'd expect, and fantastic at what she does. It's just, you have to sometimes suspend your disbelief. And just believe, because anything is possible if you're willing to have a try. And there's ways of doing that without giving up everything that you know, makes you feel safe.

Jeremy Cline
Okay, I'm sold on this.

Dawn Fry
Are you?!

Jeremy Cline
I think okay, I can do this. I can start a business. Yeah. Okay. It'll fit in better with my lifestyle. Hang on -what am I gonna do?

Dawn Fry
Sure. Now that bit, I don't have a problem with because in the beginning of the course I offer is something I do call business discovery. But it's really about discovering yourself. And some people are incredibly self-aware and know exactly what their strengths and things are. And some people, their talent is so obvious to someone else - but it's so natural to them, they just don't see it. So the first part is all about exploring, you know, what makes you tick, what you love, what you do that you don't even realise you're good at, because you do it without thinking about it. And one of the things I realised for me, in the customer experience side of things, I just have hosted and been a sort of, you know, dinner party come party person, and it's all about creating experiences for other people. I've done that without even thinking about it for my whole life. And I realised that that was something that I could really explore. I needed to really work out what I was doing when I didn't even know I was doing it. And I do believe everyone has something in them that they either realise or don't, that is a proposition that can be turned into a business.

Jeremy Cline
How long can people or should people plan for a new business to run? And I ask that because people change. Important now is not necessarily important in five years time, 10 years time. So how do you build that into the system? Or how do you encourage others to build that in so that they've got something - so that they're not creating a rod for their own backs?

Dawn Fry
Sure. I think part of the planning process is all about when we talk about the strategy, but it's really what I know we can't always know. But we do have to think about what we want from life, what our values are, and what is important to us now and into the future. So for instance, one of the reasons for creating my New Dawn programme online - at the moment I do face to face delivery in a workshop setting, my children are starting to fly the nest now - I've still got one at home and two have gone - and I might want to be in a different location. So I don't want my business to continue to be face to face only in a workshop setting. So in thinking about following my passion and doing what I want to do, but thinking about my future, I need to create something that I can move with me if I choose to do that. So I think at the outset, we have to think about our lives and what we want to achieve from them in the next few years and how our business can support that. Like you say you can create a business that is just a job and all it is is it's your job. I mean I have a job in effect - I have some associates and things like that - I've got a blueprint, I could pass it on to someone, but you've got to create a job that you want to do. Not a nightmare. Yeah.

Jeremy Cline
And what help and support have you had in getting to this? Where have you learned all of this sort of stuff from? What's helped you realise, okay, so actually, in five years time I want to, I might want to go somewhere else, I need a business that's portable. That it's got to be a business which helps me tap into these powers that you've clearly got this, you know, leading workshops and encouraging people and all that sort of thing. Is this all stuff that you discovered yourself through doing it, or you mentioned that you you'd had a mentor on the on the chocolate workshop. Have you had coaching or is this all from reading?

Dawn Fry
All sorts of things. I think I'm continually learning and continually educating myself is something I'm really interested in. I've been in various groups, I've been in something called a mastermind, I don't know if you have come across those mastermind setups. Yes so I started off, I was a few years in something called the Entrepreneurs Circle, which was a group of business owners that really focused on marketing that still exists to this day, but I've been in it long enough to sort of go through a few cycles and thought, you know, that's enough for me now. I want to implement and you know, it was taking up time and things, but it was great inspiration. I then was very much involved in a mastermind I set something up locally here. So that was a small number of business owners where we challenged and supported each other through growth and through ideas. And I'm currently being - I've paid to belong to something I'm in another mastermind group, where, again, we're launching sort of more of an online - and I've really done that because I want to technical help because I'm not particularly technically minded - on how to set up something using membership sites and and the other things that go with that and the sort of processes. So I've always invested in myself and my learning, obviously chocolate training. I go on chocolate events and tastings and things continually. I read a lot of business books, I've normally got something by my bed or someone recommends something so I try and have a novel and a business book at the same time usually.

Jeremy Cline
Where's your future going with this? What do you think the future holds for you and what are you aiming for with your consultancy business?

Dawn Fry
Well, I'd love to inspire others obviously to have a go at their own business. I do think I would like the idea of potentially being portable, of being able to support and deliver wherever I am. My husband is a blacksmith and he runs courses. He started running his courses because of the chocolate workshops because that had gone so well. He'd been a blacksmith since school, so he was doing commissions for people. And we have a little dream of maybe relocating, having a smallholding somewhere where we can have a forge on site. He's only five minutes from home, but that sounds sort of dream where I could maybe deliver some workshops, he could do the forge, but I could also run the mentoring in this sort of format and online type format. So that's the sort of longer term aim, and lots of doggies hopefully, and children that come and visit sometimes.

Jeremy Cline
You mentioned lots of business books and that sort of thing. Are there any one or two that particularly stand out that you'd recommend people have a look at?

Dawn Fry
Yes, and I hope this doesn't come across as rude, because this is the title of the book, but there's a lady called Denise Duffield-Thomas, and her book is called Get Rich, Lucky Bitch. And it is about money, people's attitudes to money and money blocks and things like that. And I think one of the biggest things that you find very hard is asking people for money saying, initially when you say, this is my course I have, it's worth this much - give me your money. And I think that is something that can be very difficult to price and it's very difficult initially, to not get caught up in a sort of personal way with the cost of things. So I found that a very good read helping you to sort of see it differently. And that was an early read of mine. Yes.

Jeremy Cline
Brilliant. I'll link to that in the show notes. And where can people go to find out a bit about you and your course?

Dawn Fry
Okay, that's kind. So the course details are on www.dawnfry.co.uk and the chocolates on a different one makechocolates.co.uk. But you know, that's just workshops. And obviously this is about starting a small business. So that's where that bit is.

Jeremy Cline
Brilliant. Well, we'll put all those links in the show notes. Dawn thank you so much. This has been really interesting. I've loved talking to you and following your journey and best of luck for your new venture.

Dawn Fry
Thank you for having me. And thank you. It's been great.

Jeremy Cline
Thanks a lot. Bye, bye.

Dawn Fry
Bye.

Jeremy Cline
I love the idea that Dawn was explaining of designing something around you. I think a lot of people they just think that they have to sacrifice their own happiness, or at least put it off so that they can look after family, provide for the future or whatever it is. The point Dawn's making is that that just doesn't really work and tomorrow may never come and we need to find a way so that we're happy with what we do at the same time as looking after all these other interests and demands that we've got. Dawn clearly believes that starting your own business and doing it in the right kind of way is one way of doing that. The show notes with the links to all the resources mentioned in this episode are at changework life.com/12. That's the number 12, one two, changeworklife.com/12. And I mentioned in the last episode that there is now a Facebook group where you can discuss all the topics that we've covered so far on the podcast and any other topics that you'd like to be covered. It's a private group, and it's somewhere where you can ask questions about your own job or your own career. Or maybe it's somewhere you can help others with their own career problems. I'll link to the group in the show notes for this episode. It would be absolutely fantastic to see you there. We've got another great interview coming up in the next episode. So subscribe, tune in and I can't wait to see you then. Cheers. Bye.

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