Episode 133: How to find your career values and enjoy your work – with Fiona Moss

Episode 133: How to find your career values and enjoy your work - with Fiona Moss

Jeremy Cline 0:00
Even when you do work which you know you're good at, sometimes it leaves you feeling just really unsatisfied. You're good at it, but you're just not enjoying it. So, what's going on? Why are you not enjoying work that you're good at? And perhaps more importantly, how can you do more of the work which you find fulfilling? How do you even start to find out what work you do find fulfilling? That's what we're going to talk about in this week's episode. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work Life.

Jeremy Cline 0:44
Hello, and welcome to Change Work Life, the podcast that's all about beating this Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. The subject of values is one that has come up time and again on the podcast. We've heard about the importance of honouring your values and how failing to do so can cause stress. We've heard how your values can help you make career decisions. But what are values, what are we talking about here? How do you figure out your own values? And once you've done so, what do you do with them? It's a subject I've wanted to dive into for a long time, and I'm delighted to welcome this week's guest, who's going to help me do just that. Fiona Moss is a transformational life coach who helps people discover their purpose, write their own rules and create a new fulfilling reality on their own terms. Fiona also hosts the You First Podcast through which she explores topics such as resilience, purpose, self-doubt, and the impostor syndrome. Fiona, welcome to Change Your Life.

Fiona Moss 1:44
Hello, and thank you very much for having me.

Jeremy Cline 1:45
Before we dive into the subject, why don't you start by telling us a little bit about who you help, how you help them, and what was it that got you into coaching in the first place?

Fiona Moss 1:54
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So, firstly, I think this is a great platform. So, I think, so often, we don't have enough platforms to talk about career change, particularly when we are past our early 20s, or when we're deciding what we should do at university, and it's almost a bit of a taboo subject. And I think this is why there's so much confusion, so much frustration, so much stress for a lot of people, and they feel stuck, because there's not this clear path to understand, okay, well, I want to change, how do I how do I make that happen? I think this is why opening up the dialogue around these conversations through this podcast, through the work that I do, as well, and there are many other career coaches, as well, is so incredibly important. Because this is actually such an incredibly common theme and issue, and I see it with so many people. And I think that's also quite reassuring for your listeners as well to hear that what they feel right now isn't abnormal, and they shouldn't feel guilty about the fact that they want to change their career, or they shouldn't feel like a failure in any way, just because they want to redirect their life. Because these were definitely feelings that I felt. And I went through this journey, I've been through a career change, which is kind of the reason why I am doing what I'm doing now. And I felt these feelings, I felt these feelings of guilt, of stress, of worrying what other people will think when I wanted to make a change, worrying what would happen to my life, was I suddenly falling off the ladder, let's say, was a falling behind everyone else. They were all hitting milestones, and I wasn't, I was almost going back to step one, which I felt. And I felt a bit like a failure. And I think it's an incredibly difficult position to be in when you're feeling all of those things, and then layer on top of that the fact that you're like, 'Well, I have no idea what I want to go and do now.' So, this lack of clarity about even the direction that you want to go in is incredibly, incredibly difficult. So, there are many, many different, many different dimensions to this challenge that your listeners will be going through, that I fully understand, and through my own journey, and through trying to figure out what I wanted to do, I did go down different rabbit holes of understanding what I wanted to do, I did follow my values, I did follow my interests, I started to really understand my purpose, and I explored a lot, I explored a lot around the wellness industry, because I was very interested in supporting people in that way. But it really came to me that a lot of our frustrations and a lot of our stresses and a lot of the facts that we feel stuck in our lives comes from something that we spend a third of our adult life doing, and that is work, right? And if our work is not really aligned, it's not just the third of your adult life that we spent at work, but that impacts your whole evening when you get home, the fact that you're exhausted when you get home, your relationship, because you're so stressed and anxious, you don't have the time or the capacity or the mental capacity or the energy to go and do other things that really light you up. So, it's not just a third of your adult life, it actually impacts the majority of it. So, if that isn't right, then it's not going to allow you to really live a fulfilling life that you want to live. And so, this, through my own journey of understanding all of this, led me into building a business where essentially, I support people who are leading a life where they don't find purpose, but they do wake up in the morning, and you know, you said it in your introduction, and those Sunday night blues are painful, but they're almost accepted on a society level. And I think it's really sad. And I think that there needs to be a dramatic change, and this is what I'm working towards on a higher level, with a higher purpose is to shift that. And to shift this idea that we just need to work for the sake of working, we just need to be on this hamster wheel, and we really don't, we really can have a more fulfilling reality. We can do work that we love, there is a new generation coming through that recognises that we don't just have to work for the weekend. We don't just have to enjoy 25 days holiday a year, or whatever it may be, our life is to be lived every single day. And I think it's complete rubbish to think that we shouldn't be enjoying our work. Our work, as I alluded to before, takes up so much of our life, so if we don't enjoy our work, in theory, then what are we enjoying about our life? So, it's how can we allow our work to fulfil us, but how can we also enable it to help us to achieve our fullest potential, and help us to be the best version of ourselves that we can be? So, I help people through my purpose programme to really get clear on what is going to give them purpose, and what is going to allow them to step into a life which is led by values, and to step into it with confidence and clarity. Because as I said before, it's not as simple as just getting clear about what you want to do. There are older beliefs and the habits and the fears that hold you back in so many ways. And whether that is around external expectation, fear that you're not good enough, you're not confident enough, you're not capable enough, lack of clarity about what that direction is, how do you make it happen from a practical point of view, even just thinking about money, it's one thing to just say, 'Oh, well, I can't just leave my job, because I earn a good salary.' Well, that's not actually true, but it doesn't mean that you just have to jump as well. And I think this is where people get a bit caught is that they think they just have to make a big step and almost jump off a cliff, just step off a cliff, and go from earning a salary to nothing. And it doesn't have to be that way either. You can make this transition in a way that feels a lot more comfortable and gives you more clarity. And that's what I do with my clients essentially, is help them to find that direction, help them to understand what works going to really fulfil them from a value-led purpose point of view, but also, how do they step into it in a way that is practical at the same time, as well. So, and this is why it's quite a complicated thing. This is why I have a business to support people through it, because it's not that obvious. But it also is not impossible. And that's why I really want to support people to recognise that we have a finite amount of time to live our lives, and we don't get the time back, yesterday is gone, this morning is gone, unfortunately, because I had a wonderful morning this morning. We went for a bike ride towards the sunrise. But you know, those moments are gone. But all we can do is start to create a life in the future that we really want to live. And it sounds incredibly morbid, I'm sure we'll speak about this as well at certain points, but there is an impermanence to life. And I think once you accept that, you start to actually recognise that you can do something about it, and you can start to take control of your life a little bit more. So, there's many different dimensions that I can go into, and I'm very passionate about this, it means a lot to me, but equally at the same time.

Jeremy Cline 8:39
That's all brilliant. And I think you've pretty much summed up in the past couple of minutes exactly what I'm trying to achieve in my podcast. So, that's all great, thank you for that. You mentioned values there a couple of times, and it's something that a lot of other coaches mentioned. But if you talk about values to other people, particularly in a career context, they will often look at you pretty blankly. So, first question, which is one of these really open high-level questions, what are values?

Fiona Moss 9:13
I think, for me, values are essentially our North Stars. So, if you really get clear on what your values are, they're a really helpful guide or tool to help you understand what's the right thing or the right decision for you to make in your career, in your relationships, in your life, where you live, whatever it may be. And we all have values, right? We all have things that matter to us. Whether we are conscious of them or not, they're sat in our subconscious. But the more we can bring them to our consciousness, the more we can use them, as I said before, as a North Star, as a tool, in order to guide us better. Now, I mean, we've all been in that situation where we've sat in some sort of corporate meeting, and they do some sort of icebreaker, okay, let's go around the room, and what is everyone's values? And like you say, everyone kind of looks a little bit like, you know, glazed eyes, and honesty and freedom, yeah, sure. And they say them, but they're not really clear on what exactly they're saying, or they're not really clear of like, actually, is that what really matters to me, or am I just saying something that's a bit general and kind of aligns to what everyone wants to hear. But when we really understand what our values are, we can really understand, okay, well, the reason I'm getting frustrated in that area, or the reason I get anxious around my work, around the lifestyle, around working extra hours, or the way that that person interacts with me, is because it's probably, almost definitely, is clashing with your values. But when you notice that something makes you feel good, makes you feel free, or makes you feel excited, it's probably because it's aligning with your values. And I think, when you can be more conscious of all of that, you can actually then make decisions to be in that state of excitement, freedom, opportunity, all of those things more often, rather than just feel this anxiety and this tension, because you're not really clear about why is this actually impacting me in this way.

Jeremy Cline 11:12
I think some people see an overlap, or perhaps get confused between values and strengths. So, if I'm good at something, then that's how you find flow and enjoy doing it. Can you talk a bit about what the differences are between strengths and values?

Fiona Moss 11:29
That's a really interesting question, I've never heard anyone say that. And I think, ultimately, I look at values as something that inherently guides your decisions, right? Whereas a strength is, essentially, something practical that you're good at. So, for example, my values would guide what I do. But also, it's what I deem important in others, as well. So, for example, one of my important values is emotional intelligence. And when I get frustrated on something on a bigger level, whether it's macro level, whether it's something in what's going on globally, whether it's something that a business doesn't really negatively impact me or stresses me out, maybe it's because they're not showing emotional intelligence, maybe it's because they're doing something that is not morally right, maybe it's because it doesn't necessarily align with my values. And now, that is then completely removed from what I'm good at. I might have emotional intelligence, but that's separate. And that is separate to what they are doing. So, I think there's a real difference between, on a practical level, of like what you're doing, and that would be your strengths, versus your values, which could be something that's a little bit more abstract, such as freedom or honesty, rather than necessarily verb of 'to be honest' or 'to be free'.

Jeremy Cline 12:53
I'm going to promise to my listeners that we are going to come on to how you actually go about identifying what your own values are. But before we get there, what does it mean when we talk about honouring values?

Fiona Moss 13:05
I think when you are conscious of what they are, and be it whether you're conscious or not, but obviously, when you're conscious of them, you know what they are, you can make decisions on the back of them. If you are not aligning your decisions or your actions with your values, you're not honouring them, ultimately. So, therefore, you're not almost being honest with yourself. You're not honouring yourself. And I think that's ultimately what it comes down to. There are things that you find important to yourself, they are your values. And if you are not in a career that aligns with them, living in a location that aligns with them, in a relationship that aligns with them, whatever that may be, you're not honouring them. And this is actually, you mentioned it earlier that I have a podcast called You First, and the whole premise of that is about putting yourself first in order to be the best version of yourself, in order to be the best version of other people. Your values are so incredibly important and should be your North Star, your guiding light, in terms to really create the life that you want to create. But ultimately, if you are not aligning your decisions, then there's always going to be this state of tension. You're never going to feel truly fulfilled, you're never going to feel truly aligned to your values. And ultimately, you're dishonouring them in that way.

Jeremy Cline 14:20
So, is that the nub of why this is important, that if you're not honouring your values, if you're not living your values, then it's going to create this tension, which can lead to stress, anxiety, all that sort of stuff?

Fiona Moss 14:33
Yeah, emotionally. I mean, I don't know whether yourself or any of your listeners have read any of Simon Sinek's work, and he talks a lot about start with, his book Start With Why, he talks a lot about the reasons why emotionally things tap into us on a real visceral level. We can't explain why. You know, we can't really understand why. When somebody said something, it made the hair on our arm stand up. It really hurt, hit us at a core level. We can't really explain why that was, but it just did. You get a feeling in your stomach, and you can't explain it. The sentences, you can't put it into words. It's not just a phrase, but it comes from the fact that there is a part of our brain which ignites emotional responses to things. But it doesn't have capacity for language. There is another part of our brain, which doesn't have connection to emotion, but it's able to compute language. Now, it is those two parts that then conflict, and we start to use the area which has the capacity for language to overthink, right? This is why going with your gut feeling, where you can't necessarily explain exactly why you're doing something, is so incredibly important, because it's tapping into those emotions, it's tapping into those real raw responses. If we go with our gut, and we just kind of go with it, but we don't know why, that's one thing. But if we can start to become really aware of what that gut is, what those emotions are, why we have those responses, in a way, we can be a lot more in control of those decisions, and actually, really take charge of them a lot more. Our values are not something to be made up, our values are not something that sound good. Our values aren't something, just like our purpose aren't, aren't something that we just, I don't know, create. They are something that we already have. It's about a case of discovering what is really important to you, there is no right or wrong in this. Right? It's just about getting really clear about what's important to you, and doing the work you already know, it's actually already there. You just have to discover it. The answers are there. But it's just about going through the process to really get clear, and I know we'll come on to this, but really get clear about what are they, and then, starting to recognise, in your life, how are they actually being conflicted, and how are they actually, what aligns to them, and recognise how do you feel against them. Okay, because if they're being conflicted, then most likely, it's a real sure sign that, yeah, this is something that's incredibly important to us, so therefore, you should listen to that. So, to give you an example, if freedom is something that's incredibly important to you, it's something that's incredibly important to me, it's one of my top values, then understanding when you feel tension in your life, is that because it's conflicting with your value? Such as, you know, I lived in London for a period of time, and after a while, I felt very, I felt like I just needed to get out. I just really needed to like leave London next, because it's a very constrained city, you are in a city, and I needed space to breathe, I needed to be by the sea or in the countryside, or whatever it was. And the very similar thing was when I set my business up, I recognised freedom was so incredibly important to me, so I set it up completely remotely, so that I could do whatever I want. And at the moment, I've set it up in a way that I've been travelling through Latin America and living in certain countries for four to eight weeks at a time. But I wouldn't have been able to do that, necessarily, if I just thought, and this was before the pandemic, the actual idea of saying a completely remote business was still a little bit bizarre. But I was really adamant that that was incredibly, incredibly important to me. So, I made sure that I was completely location independent, and set myself up in that way. And that's meant that I can live this life that I want to live and feel more fulfilled as a result.

Jeremy Cline 18:21
It's interesting that you mentioned freedom to travel, not wanting to live in a big city, and you mentioned honouring your values in terms of the work you do, but also, where you live, life partners, that kind of thing. Does it follow from that, that people have different values, depending on the different aspects of their life that they're considering?

Fiona Moss 18:42
I would argue no. Your values are important to you, and you are the core vehicle between all of that. So, if freedom is important to you in your career, why would it not be in some other area of your life? It doesn't mean that, necessarily, if you think about your top three, and they might slide on a little bit of a sliding scale, okay, it might be a bit more important to have love, I don't know, for argumet's sake as a value in your relationship and things like that, rather than necessarily your work. But it still should be a core component of you as a person. I think the problem so much with especially our career and why people are in this position where they are stuck in a career and they're frustrated is because we box ourselves, we box parts of our life up, and we think we have to be one person over here, and we think we have to be one person in front of our family, one person in front of our relationship, but in order to feel completely aligned, completely fulfilled, we should be recognising who we are as a human being. And I think, too often, we're spending too much time on just scrolling through recruiters' websites or LinkedIn and looking at what's available, and thinking how can I just fit in that box. And I think, so often, we need to kind of just step back and look at who we are as a person, what matters to us as a person, and therefore, how does my external life reflect that. And that is, whether that's a relationship, whether that is your career, or whether that is where you live, they all should be aligned to what you want as a human being. And that's not going to change. You don't change as a human being just because you are working, versus in your relationship, you still should be the person that aligned to those values that you are. And this has definitely been a hard learning curve that I've gone through, and whether it's been through my corporate life, I was essentially a buyer in a major retailer, and I very much showed up as a work Fiona. And I would kind of put on a show, so to speak, to be that person, to when I stepped into my own business, and again, I still tried to show up in a certain way, but now, as I've moved through my business, and I've grown and I've grown as a business owner, as well, I really recognise that the more I show up authentically, not only does it align more with people, because it's a lot more real, it's a lot more honest, it has more of an impact, and as such, I can grow my business, but it's a lot less tiring, it's a lot less exhausting to try and show up as different versions of yourself. So, I would kind of invite your listeners to just step back and go, 'Forget my career, forget the relationship just for a moment', and just look at what is important to you, what is important to you as a human being, and then, aligning your life to that. Because otherwise, what you end up doing is aligning it to what you think you should want, or you should be doing, or what other people expect of you, rather than what you need from your own life.

Jeremy Cline 21:31
Let's get to the practical question of how you actually go and figure out what on earth your values are, so then you can start to make these assessments about what it is that you need in order to honour them. So, what can the listener do to start identifying their values? What exercises can you give them to start with this?

Fiona Moss 21:52
It's an incredibly important place to, or incredibly important aspect to be working on. I spend a lot of time with my clients to get it, whether they are changing a career, whether they're building a business, or whether they actually already built a business, and they're looking to grow, but to reconnect what those values are, I spent a lot of time with them to really get clear on what that is. So, it is a big piece of work. But it's also one of those pieces of work that once you know it actually provides so much for you to move forward on. But as a starting place, what I would really recommend to do for your listeners is just to spend time, and even just maybe to write out the ones that really come to top of mind. And however many that is, 10, 20, however many. Then, just focus on those ones. And then maybe even, just go back and revisit and narrow it down, can they get it to a smaller list. You know, ideally, we want to be recognising what are your top three values, because then they do become, as I said earlier, your North Star. But you know, that doesn't mean that, just because we have top three values, number seven, eight, nine, aren't also important to us. But quite often, what we'll see is that some actually overlap, and you almost have like, let's call it a parent value. And you might have things like honesty and integrity. Okay, well, which ones for you are the parent value, and then which ones sit underneath? But once you can identify and actually narrow it down in that way, you can start to understand, okay, well, how are these showing up in my life right now? How are they not showing up in my life right now? The areas that I feel frustrated in my work, is it because they're conflicting with my values? Somebody who might be, and I've got quite a few people who do my courses during these positions who are, say, working as a lawyer or in finance or something like that, and they just feel incredibly conflicted. Because one of their top values is freedom. But in such roles, where they are working endless hours, they don't have that freedom, and they feel like they need to always be constantly on. So, you can start to recognise even a small place. Okay, well, if that is the case, rather than maybe just stepping away completely from your work right now and going, 'Okay, well, I need freedom, so I just need to leave my job, because that doesn't allow it', what can you start to do to make small changes? And because it doesn't always have to be big, bold leaps, as we said earlier. It doesn't have to be stepping off a cliff. But what can you start to do more of to bring in that value a little bit more? If it's freedom, what boundaries can you put in place? What can you do to create more freedom? Do you go and make sure that you do actually have your weekends off, you don't open your laptop at the weekend? Or if it's something like adventure or outdoors or whatever that may be, is it to make sure that you are spending a lot more time doing that, whether it's community, are you engaging in community activities, joining a book club, joining a club of some sort, joining online communities. So, it's starting to think, okay, well, what is conflicting here, maybe how can I set boundaries around that, and what can I maybe bring in more of, and that's just the start, right? But then, it's obviously the bigger picture as well, thinking bigger. And it's about thinking beyond that, okay, well, what do I really want from my life? This is what's incredibly important. What's that long term look like for me?

Jeremy Cline 25:10
When you're starting to write down this list of values, there's going to be some things which come to mind as being values. So, you've mentioned freedom, honesty, integrity, that sort of thing. But how do you go about identifying the values behind things which might not be values in and of themselves? So, let me give you an example. When I was doing a values exercise relatively recently, one of the, if you like, the instructions on the worksheet was that, anything that you do or have may not be a value. So, for example, travel was an example given. Travel of itself isn't necessarily a value, but there may be a value behind wanting to travel. So, it might be adventure, it might be fun, it might be learning. So, how do you kind of figure out what is a value and what isn't a value?

Fiona Moss 26:11
Very interesting question. So, I think, as you almost say that, it's almost like it's not the verb, right? That would be the best way I would describe it as. I actually have a tool and a resource that enables my clients to actually pull it down and really condense it down. Because otherwise, you can really get caught up in thinking, well, I love to travel, or I love to eat, or I love to read. But I think, when you ask yourself the question why, and this is a big question that I ask all my clients all the time, is that, when you go, 'Why?' Why do you like that? Okay, well, I like to travel because I like adventure. I like to travel, because I want fun. I like to travel because I want excitement. It's almost a feeling, as well, that you get, or a feeling of like, if it's reading, because I want to learn, because I want to absorb perspectives, whatever it may be. But I think, when we get caught up in just the doing activity, and we don't look in depth about why that's important, we get so caught up in just the how, and I think this is fundamentally a big part of this change for many people, as well, is that they get so caught up in the how. So, they'll be thinking, 'Okay, I want to leave my job, okay, well, I just need to go and find this job over here. Or actually, I just need a little bit more time. So, I'm going to go and work less hours.' And that might not always be the answer it might be, but actually, if you really dislike your job, I think, so often, we need to get to the core of the reason about that my values are important, but also, the why, the why behind all of these things. So, even if you narrow it down to your values, why is honesty important to you? Why is freedom important to you? Why is adventure important to you? And when you can narrow that down in that way, you can start to identify, okay, well, what are values to me? And what are maybe as we said before, what are strengths, or what are just activities, or just things that you're doing, to really give yourself that core essence of why you're doing what you're doing. Because ultimately, that's all values are. As I said before, they're guiding sign towards why you're doing something.

Jeremy Cline 28:15
How do you know when to stop? You could kind of go round and round in circles forever on this.

Fiona Moss 28:20
There is no point to stop. That's the magic of it. And this is the magic of almost like what I do, and whether it's new person or whether it's my client, because there's always so much growth, right? There's always so much growth. And I think we get caught up in a society that tells you, 'Okay, cool, do your exam, pass your exam, go to the next level, do this, do that', and it's just a ladder that you just climb. So, it's just tick boxes. And we forget that there is personal development in all of this. And the biggest way to grow is through your personal development, it's not through just sending out a CV or getting an interview or whatever. In a way, anyone could do that. But it's about getting really clear about what you want from your own life, what's holding you back, what's holding you back from the next level, or the next level, or whatever that level may be. Those visions that we all have are all possible. To be able to set up a remote business and travel through Latin America was something that a few years ago, I would have kind of laughed at myself about, but I'm doing it, right? To be able to kind of run a business, and is incredibly exciting as well. And there is a process to doing that. And there is a process to building it up. But actually, it's fundamentally the personal development that is 50% of that. Because it's allowing yourself to overcome the fears and the beliefs and the limitations that we would put on ourselves, that hold us back from doing that. But equally, at the same time, it's doing the work. So, kind of ask, 'Well, why do you want that? What is it going to create for you? What impact are you trying to have on the world? What potentially you're trying to achieve in yourself? Because ultimately, we all have so much potential. And I imagine the people listening to your podcast are high-achieving individuals who have so much potential, that they're not even tapping into it, they're probably tapping into 20% of their potential right now, because they're conforming to a set of rules that doesn't enable them to fully fulfil that potential. And they're not asking these questions, and they're not digging in to asking themselves why, you know, why do you want this, because there is no end game with this. I think so often, and like your question kind of alludes to it, it's not homework. This isn't like, guys, listen to this podcast, go away, sit down, ask yourself, like what your values are, and then well done, done, check. It's that constant need and that constant want to explore more about yourself, and explore more about the depths of who you are, and what impact you can make on this world, and how you can really fulfil this life that you've been given, and what you can do with it. Because I think we get so caught up in a way of thinking, and this is no fault of our own, but you know, in Britain, and whatever country you're being brought up, and you get conditioned to a way of thinking, and that's normal, there's nothing you've done wrong. But when we step out of that, and we step into new cultures, new perspectives, we start to recognise that there are different ways of doing things. What's the right way I should be doing it? How can I lean into my strengths a little bit more, grow my strengths a little bit more, build a new strength maybe, to achieve so much more for myself? But fundamentally, that does start by this self-exploration. And that all starts by getting really clear about what do you want from your own life, what matters to you, and you know, how can you start to align your life to all of that.

Jeremy Cline 31:39
A question I've been asked recently is, someone who's quite clear that they're in an area where it lends itself to different types of industries. So, the fundamental skill isn't industry-specific, but you can do it in all sorts of different settings. And they're very clear on which industry, which setting they want to work in, but haven't been able, you know, sort of asking the why, why, why question, it doesn't seem to lend itself to coming to a particular value or something that's identifiable as a value. I'm just wondering that instance, whether you can just kind of accept it, so even if you're not able to identify a particular value underlying it, if you know pretty strongly that you like industry X, you don't like industry Y, you see your career being more fulfilling in industry X, that is kind of, it doesn't really matter to go down into the what the value is, and certainly, not to drive yourself crazy thinking about what it is. Do you agree with that? Or do you think that there's always going to be a value underneath?

Fiona Moss 32:58
There is values. If you can't articulate why something matters to you, there is something there that is fundamentally blocking you from getting clear about what you want and you need. If you can't articulate your needs, if you can't articulate your desires, I would really be curious to understand why. And I think there is then something blocking you from holding yourself back from what you truly want. And it might just be that they just feel that that is right for them. And they might just feel like, you know, I've seen somebody before who's created a really great lifestyle in that industry, and that's what I want. And I'm happy to go down that road. But is that really going to help them achieve their full potential? No. You look at industry leaders in pretty much every single field you look at, and they are so self-aware. They do this work, they dig in. You can't achieve, if you think of the pendulum swinging, you can't achieve the great heights on one side if you don't actually challenge yourself on the other side as well. And it goes in equilibrium, right? If it doesn't swing very much, you're not going to achieve a huge amount, because you're not challenging yourself. So, it's really about challenging yourself, and challenging yourself could be by digging in, by unblocking yourself, by getting really clear about what you want. As I said before, if you can't firmly articulate your desires and what you want and what you need from your career, you're never going to be able to take that next step. You might be able to step into that industry, yeah, right, fine, but it depends on how much of your potential you want to achieve. And if we're talking about achieving a really fulfilling life, which is what I'm all about, I'm not about just following the rules and doing what people tell you to do, because how can we all truly achieve our potential and achieve real fulfilment if we just all do the same thing? Because we're human beings, we're designed very, very differently. So, it takes a lot of guts to actually stand up to that, stand up to the status quo, and to say, 'Actually, no, this is what I want.' But if you can't articulate that, you're never going to achieve that.

Jeremy Cline 35:02
Something you've already alluded to is people doing what they feel like they're expected to do. And this is something that I can definitely see coming up, as you go through this exercise of identifying your values, that you start to put down values which you think you should have, rather than those which, in fact, you have. How do you identify that you're doing that, and stop doing that and get out values which are truly yours?

Fiona Moss 35:31
It's a really interesting question, because it actually came up a couple of weeks ago in a group coaching call, with a slightly different lens on it. Whereas one of my clients kind of said, 'I'm not sure if this is something that I want,' this wasn't alluding to values, but more like interests, 'I'm not sure if this is something I want, or if it's something that I've just been brought up to believe that I should want, and therefore, it's so ingrained in me that I think I should want it. And it's a really difficult question to unpick. This is where really recognising all these moving parts and your emotional response is so incredibly important. Because if you feel emotionally like you're in a situation that makes you feel good, and it makes your hair stand up on your arms, and you know, there's something in you that's going, 'I just feel almost at home in this situation.' You know, 'I just feel very calm, it makes me feel very peaceful, I feel energetic, I feel alive in the situation.' And if you're in a completely opposite situation where you don't feel great, it really frustrates you, then, start to listen to these emotional responses, because your body's telling you something. Your body isn't just getting you from day to day, it also connects you to a lot of these emotions. So, this is where this work comes in. And this is when not ignoring some of these natural feelings that you have in your body, we know when we're in love how we feel a little bit different. We feel a difference in our stomach, a difference in, those butterflies in your stomach aren't, obviously, there's no butterflies in your stomach, but it's a real physical reaction, right? You know, that sort of daze that you have, it's no different when you connect to something that really aligns to your values and aligns to your purpose, it is no different. But unfortunately, we've been conditioned to such a point that we ignore that, we ignore all of the cues and the signs that we already have naturally going on in our life. And if we start to become more attuned to them, and more attuned to ourselves, our consciousness, our subconsciousness, we can start to build a picture of actually going. And it does take time, of course, it takes time, this is not something that happens overnight. As I said before, it does take work. But it's the commitment to that work. And it's the commitment to, whether it's through journaling, whether it's through this sort of work that we're speaking about, whether it's through podcasts and listening to people, doing courses, whatever it may be, but building up information, because all of this essentially is information building and information gathering, for you to go, what's important for me, and this is all it fundamentally is, what is important to me, what sort of lifestyle do I want to live and lead, what sort of life do I want to lead, and what do I need to do to change it. And that's fundamentally all of this is, right? And again, whether that is your career, your relationships, or your life in general, we all have a choice, right? And I've even said this to a few clients recently, that we have a choice in anything, right? Whether it's a career change, whatever it may be, you have three choices. You have a choice to accept it, if you're frustrated in it, but just accept it, if you don't want to do anything about it, accept it. If you want to, the next choice is that you change it. If you're in a situation, and you don't like it, change it, right? Change your working hours, change your job role, whatever it may be. Sidestep in your business. But if you really fundamentally don't like it, you have the choice to leave. And at any given moment, whatever is happening in your life, you have those three choices, accept, change or leave. And when you recognise that, whatever decision you make, whichever one of those three that you make, it is your choice, and that gives you so much more empowerment as well, that you're not stuck, you're not frustrated, you're choosing to be there no matter how rubbish it is, no matter how frustrating it is, at any given moment, that is a choice. And you have those three choices. But when you do the work to kind of recognise, and it's building, and again, as I said before, it's building, it's building, it's building, it's building a level of self-awareness, you have the information to say, 'Okay, well, I've got this information, what choice am I going to make with this information? How am I going to move forward from it?

Jeremy Cline 39:46
So, someone who's been through this process or is continually going through this process, but they've now at least got a list of 10 or 15 values, and maybe they've identified their top three, what are maybe the first one or two practical things that they can do, now that they've gotten this list of values to figure out what to accept, what to change, what to leave?

Fiona Moss 40:09
Fundamentally, it comes down to what's the most important ones. And I think this is what I was saying before is essentially that, you know, if you look at what those top ones are, and then you look at your lifestyle, and you say, 'Okay, well, if this isn't right for me right now, where do I need to either accept it, change it or leave it, create boundaries', whatever that may be for you, or whether I need to make bigger shifts. And there will be short term, there will be medium term, there will be long term choices that you need to make. And this is where you're making decisions in terms of your career change come in, really. But ultimately, that's the next step, it's starting to think, 'Okay, I am in a position now where I either say, if I'm listening to this podcast, I have to do something about it. Alright, I just accept it, I accept that this is what's going on. And I just let that go.' Because it's energetically so incredibly draining, to just sit there and procrastinate and not make a decision and be indecisive. And say you're going to leave your career and don't do it, and then wait, and then wait another 18 months, because you're going on maternity leave, or you're getting a bonus or you're buying a house, there's always something we could delay and delay and delay for. And I think, ultimately, if you are that frustrated, or not even just that frustrated, I think sometimes one of the worst place to be in is that when you're in a position where, quote-unquote, you're fine. You don't really love your life, but you're feeling a bit frustrated, you don't like the long hours, but you got a good salary, you have a nice life, everything's kind of fine. But you're not really in love with your life. And you know you want more, and you know you want to achieve more of your potential, you know you want more time with your family, friends, you know you want to travel more, you know you want to do different things, whatever that may be. But you know, everything's fine. So, it's not really pushing you over the edge to do it. But if you are in a position where you're like, 'I know that, fundamentally, my lifestyle and my career is not aligning to these values', then you have a choice and you might go, 'Okay, well, I'm just going to accept it. And that's that.' And then, you can let go of that energy draining indecision that you're sitting on right now. Or you make a decision, and you go, 'Right, I'm going to start changing a few things', whether it's a big change, or a little change, but you start changing. Or I leave, and I make that decision, I am going to say I commit to myself and a lifestyle that I truly want to live, and to start to achieve more of my potential, because when you align, as I said earlier, when you align your life to your values, when you feel more fulfilled, when you are so incredibly more purpose-led in your day, you will achieve more of your potential, you will show up more authentically, you will have more energy, because you're not drained by the fact that you're getting pinged with emails every single minute asking you to be in this meeting or that meeting, that you don't really need to be in. Your life is your life to live. And actually, but it starts with small steps. So, I'd really encourage anyone listening to this to just start taking some of those small steps, start to understand what your values are, but start taking small steps in order to really just start moving your life in the direction you want it to be in.

Jeremy Cline 43:13
Awesome advice, thank you for that. Anyone who wants to dive into the topic in more detail, is this something where you have a resource at all, a book or anything like that, which you can recommend people take a look at to explore this further?

Fiona Moss 43:28
Really great books to kind of explore the idea of values and purpose, and you know, I would be very intrinsically linked is Start With Why I mentioned earlier by Simon Sinek. And he talks a lot about the importance of actually living with meaning, and emotions that come from a real visceral level, rather than actually surface-led emotions that are probably, as you alluded to before, are coming from more from society than from ourselves. So, I'd really encourage you guys to buy to read that book, or if you literally just Google Simon Sinek Start With Why, he talks about that a lot, and there are a lot of videos that you can dive into as well. But another book I would really encourage your readers to read is one called Be More Pirate, and that's by Sam Conniff. And he talks a lot about how pirates at one point, we're not rule breakers just for the sake of being rule breakers, but they lead with purpose. And they did things for a meaning, because they saw injustices. And they were very forward-thinking in the way they we're doing it. And they didn't follow the status quo, and they challenged ideas. And at one point, they were deemed radicals or not great humans, because they were challenging the status quo, ultimately. But they were just doing things because they believed in them. And I think this is incredibly important approach to take, is that, actually, it's almost like be a rebel, but don't be a rebel without a cause, be a rebel with a cause, and do what matters and do what matters to you. And when you do that, it is so incredibly impactful.

Jeremy Cline 43:44
And where would you like people to go if they want to find you?

Fiona Moss 45:03
If anyone would like to connect, their best base is either probably on my Instagram, which is @FionaMoss_, or on my website, which is www.fionamoss.co.uk. And I do have a free career change handbook as well, if anybody would just like to start thinking about, 'Okay, well, how can I start to make this change?', and to start to really think about some of these bigger questions as well. And you know, just take that first step as well, so you can either find that by the link in the bio on my Instagram or on the free resources page on my website.

Jeremy Cline 45:44
Brilliant. And as always, there'll be links to those in the show notes for this episode. Fiona, you've given us an awful lot to think about. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

Fiona Moss 45:54
Thank you for having me.

Jeremy Cline 45:54
Okay, hope you enjoyed that interview with Fiona Moss. I can't tell you how much of a breakthrough it was for me, when I started doing some work on my own values. I already had a pretty good idea of what my strengths were. And on the face of it, a lot of the work I was doing play to those strengths. But I still wasn't enjoying it. It still left me feeling unfulfilled, unsatisfied, and I couldn't figure out why that was. It was only when I started to do work to uncover my own values that the clouds really parted, and I started to see what was going on. I had a much greater idea of what was important to me, what was motivating to me. And not only did it help to explain why I wasn't particularly enjoying some of the work I was doing, but it really helped me to figure out what sorts of things I would enjoy. It's also quite a challenging thing to do, not only to identify what are values, but to identify what are your values. It's a process that can take weeks or sometimes even months. And certainly, I would find it pretty tough just to do it by myself without any kind of guidance and without any kind of framework. Fortunately, if this is something that you'd like to start diving into, well, you've heard me mention this before, there are a couple of exercises on my website, which are designed to help you figure out what your values are. There's two exercises, and the first of them encourages you to go back into your own career history and have a look at what things you enjoyed doing, what things you didn't like, and what was your greatest memory. And all of those bits of information can help you figure out what your values are. If you found that you were enjoying doing something, then that's a good example of a value being met. On the other hand, if there were things that you really didn't enjoy, well, that's a good example, perhaps, that what you were doing didn't meet your own value. And so, you can figure out what the value is by effectively looking at what the opposite is. It's by no means the only exercise you can do to help you uncover your values. And it won't necessarily give you a complete picture. But it is a really good starting point. So, if what Fiona and I discussed in this interview resonates with you, and you think you'd like to get into a little bit further, then I do encourage you to take a look at the exercises. You'll find them, as I say, on the Change Work Life website, they're at changeworklife.com/happy, that's changeworklife.com/happy, that's H-A-P-P-Y, changeworklife.com/happy. For the full show notes for this episode, you'll find them at changeworklife.com/133, that's changeworklife.com/133, for the full transcript of the interview, a summary of everything we talked about, and links to the resources mentioned. We have another great interview coming your way in two weeks' time. So, if you haven't subscribed to the show already, make sure that you do so. And I can't wait to see you in the next episode. Cheers. Bye.