Episode 124: How to choose your next job – with Misha Rubin of Career Leap

Do you apply for new jobs because they match your previous experience, even though past roles didn’t make you happy?  Have you accepted new positions in the past because they came with a higher salary, only to find that you were unhappy with the day-to-day tasks?  Do you feel like you want to change jobs but you’re not sure in which direction to go? 

In this interview, Career Leap founder Misha Rubin explains how you can start to map out your values, strengths and unique career criteria to identify exactly what you need in your next job in order to thrive.

Today’s guest

Misha Rubin of Career Leap

Website: Misha Rubin

Facebook: Misha Rubin

LinkedIn: Misha Rubin

Misha Rubin is a career educator, entrepreneur and speaker.  Until recently he was a partner at a Big Four management consulting firm, where he spent fifteen fruitful years.  He managed hundreds of millions of dollars worth of projects, advised a countless number of clients and guided hundreds of careers.

His corporate experience, personal quest for meaning and fulfillment, and rigorous study birthed The Career Leap Method – a pragmatic, elevating and actionable process designed for people to obtain clarity about their next career moves.
As well as providing career transformational programs to individuals and groups, Misha is a musician who recorded a music album (ARE WE READY by Misha Lyuve), an adoptive parent of three and a board member of Worldwide Orphans.

What you’ll learn in this episode

  • [01:35] Misha discusses his career background and how and why he created The Career Leap Method.
  • [05:16] Misha talks about his involvement in music and how it helps fulfill him.
  • [07:12] The two common traps to avoid when job searching.
  • [09:42] How to manage your career by curating the opportunities which present themselves.
  • [12:57] Why you should focus on your unique career criteria before looking at salary.
  • [14:30] The four aspects of your unique career criteria: values, strengths, motivations and interpersonal profile.
  • [19:31] How the four aspects align and why you should look out for any conflict.
  • [20:44] Creating a comprehensive career leap map that includes ideas of what your next step might be.
  • [23:51] The research you can carry out to explore the different directions you can go in.
  • [25:18] How to filter down your options and identify what is calling you.
  • [27:19] Why it’s worth waiting until the end of the exercise before looking at the compromises you might need to make.
  • [30:34] Figuring out your direction and taking a series of small steps towards it.
  • [31:40] How often you should review and edit your career leap map.
  • [33:10] How you can take the first steps in exploring a change in your career.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Please note that some of these are affiliate links and we may get a small commission in the event that you make a purchase.  This helps us to cover our expenses and is at no additional cost to you.

To see the resources recommended by all our guests, visit the Resources page.

Episode 124: How to choose your next job - with Misha Rubin

Jeremy Cline 0:00
If you're feeling dissatisfied in your job, it's perfectly natural to want to make a change. But how do you know what change is going to work out for you? How do you know that you're not going to be equally dissatisfied in whatever job you move to? In other words, what criteria are you looking for in your new job? That's what we're going to talk about in this week's episode. I'm Jeremy Cline and this his Change Work Life.

Jeremy Cline 0:38
Hello, and welcome to Change Work Life, the podcast that's all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. What do you want your career to do for you? You may feel like you want to change job, but what criteria are you looking for your job to fulfil? A coach friend of mine recently said to me that the biggest barrier to getting what you want is knowing what you want. So, this week, we're going to cover how you articulate for yourself the criteria you want to satisfy with your job. To help us, I'm delighted to be joined by Misha Rubin, a former consultant at one of the Big Four accounting firms. Misha is a career educator who guides people towards meaningful, fulfilling work by tapping into their self-awareness and giving them powerful tools for life. Misha, welcome to the show.

Misha Rubin 1:26
Hi, Jeremy. It's a pleasure to be here.

Jeremy Cline 1:28
So, Misha, why don't you start by introducing yourself and telling us a bit about what you're about?

Misha Rubin 1:34
Okay. So, I always like to start by sharing with people that, in my career years, I pretty much tried it all. I started my career when I graduated from college by taking jobs, every two years, I started a new job hoping that the next one will be more fulfilling. So, I tried that. And then, I took a year off to discover my "passion", and I'm using like quotation marks. So, I tried that, I had a great time. I didn't find my passion. And then, I tried the traditional route of staying with one company for 15 years. I thought they'd let me stay there. And throughout all my career, I had the sense that this job is not it, it's just not it. And even when I became a partner in a Big Four management consulting firm, I still couldn't shake off that feeling that I was wasting my life away. Like I wasn't doing something very important that I'm here to do in life. And that, kind of my whole life, I've been in this inquiry - how come my job is not meaningful and fulfilling? Though I had a great career, I was more successful that I could ever imagine, as an immigrant coming to the United States, my job was like a great trophy to talk about and to show others, and it still wasn't it. That was kind of my impulse. And till one day, I woke up, and I knew exactly, like I knew exactly why it wasn't fulfilling. And that was the beginning of what I now call the Career Leap method. And it was about year and a half ago. And since then, what I've been doing is actually educating people about careers, about their choices. You know, one of the things that I realised that nobody, while we're taught so many different things in our lifetime, nobody teaches us how to think about our careers, how to choose them. And a lot of choices that we make are that kind of a common-sense decisions, maybe there are some aspirations, maybe some are family or community, they might not be necessarily pressures, but those could be like preconceived ideas of how our career or what we should do for life, and that influences us. So, a lot of people actually never set aside time to stop and think what I should really be doing here in life. And I would say, on the other spectrum of this, there is like a lot of this advice that's given to people, just go, follow your dreams, you know, discover your passion, like all these things that I remember left me with the feeling, I don't know if I knew, like I would follow it, but I really have no idea what it is. And I feel like a lot of advice that people are given is really not practical, and I think all that leaves people feeling stuck and powerless and not knowing what to do. So, that's where I thought that what people really need is a methodology, some process, some way of thinking about their career that I developed, and that's what I've been teaching, that's what I've been speaking about, that's what I've been interviewed on in a lot of different places, that's where corporations invite me to speak about. So, that's where I am causing, my goal is to cause a revolution. I'm not there yet. I'm just shaking some waters.

Jeremy Cline 5:04
Before we dive into that in a little more depth, I've got to ask you about the music? Where did the music fit in? I see on your website that you've recorded albums, you've got music videos. Where's that come into it?

Misha Rubin 5:17
It's very interesting. So, I didn't have a sense of fulfilment at work, so I was looking how can I fill it. This void in me, how can I fill it? So, I tried taking on internal projects within my job, like mentorship and I led one of the most successful people initiatives on work-life balance, you know, so I did that. Then, I am on the board of a charity, because I thought, 'Maybe if I do that.' And one of the things I did, I recorded a music album, I always wrote poetry and a little bit of music, and there was an impulse. And there was a period when I was just writing a lot, and a friend of mine, actually, I put it in acknowledgement as my gratitude to her for lying to me that recording an album is easy. So, I believed her that it was easy. And that I did, and I did it, and I recorded a bunch of videos. That's pre-children. And then, I adopted three kids, and I still didn't feel fulfilled. So, what I really got to try all these things, that the sense of fulfilment that comes from our work, it's really not going to come from any other place. That's what I learned. Still, our work has got to fulfil what we're here to do, and then we can do a lot of great things, including music, art, whatever, whatever great hobbies we can have in life.

Jeremy Cline 6:46
Let's take it back to the sorts of things that you teach. So, I mentioned at the top that to me, the question is what is it you want your job to do for you. And your job has got to satisfy a certain number of criteria. Perhaps you can start by giving us some examples of the sorts of criteria that might be important to someone.

Misha Rubin 7:12
Let me maybe start with talking a little bit about a few different pitfalls that people fall in in their career search, because I think that will make that criteria clearer. So, I see there are two traps that are common. One, I call them skills and experience trap. So, this is where you have a great skill and experience, and when you look for your next job, you start with updating your resume with your skills and experience, and then you go to, there's a lot of different job posting sites, including LinkedIn, and then you go, and you look for that job that requires that skill and experience. And that's probably the way you found your current job that you're not thrilled about. And then, this creates kind of a loop, like a trap. Because if your skills and experience haven't brought you a sense of meaning and fulfilment, looking for more jobs that way probably will end up in the similar type of place, you probably will get another version of your current job. And on top of that, you probably know a lot of people with great skills and great experiences that are not fulfilled and hate their jobs. Right? So, that's one trap, I call it skills and experience trap. And the other trap, I call it an opportunity trap. This is when your ex-co-worker, ex-boss or recruiter calls you or somebody finds you and says, 'Hey, there is a great opportunity.' And there is more of something that you want, maybe more money or more responsibilities or more learning or more flexibility. And on surface, it feels like it's a better choice than what you have. Now, if you make a few moves like these opportunity moves, you might find yourself in the place, how have I even ended up here, I never wanted this, right? Because unless you curate your opportunities with criteria, these opportunities might take you, though they might seem better on the surface, they might take you places where you don't want to end up, and they might take you on the roads that you don't want to take. So, unless you have a way of curating those opportunities, you're really not managing your career. So, that's where a lot of people get stuck, and they really don't have a good way out of this, of the slopes. So then, the question is, if those are the old ways that people look for job, how do I discover my career in some new ways? And that's where the concept that I developed that's called Unique Career Criteria comes into play. So, as humans, we have very personal to us, very unique ways of being, characteristics, preferences. And if only we knew what they are, and if only we could articulate them and use them as criteria, then we can actually go out into the world and say, 'Is this a right industry for me? Is this the right problem to solve for me? Is this a right organisation for me? Is this the right team for me? Is this the right boss for me?' Then, you have some way of measuring things and making decisions that align to who you are. So, at this point, I ask the listeners to imagine, and you Jeremy also, imagine, if you were working in an organisation and solving a problem that's aligned with your values, right? That's number one. If you were doing the work that's built on your strengths. That's the second. If the job setup was such that it fits your unique motivation mechanism, like the way you're motivated. That's number three. And the way you interact with your teammates, with your customers, with other constituents fits your interpersonal profile. So, if I take these four things, and it really all kind of comes together, then you would be in what I call your Thrive Zone, you would be naturally thriving. And the way thriving would look like, you would be enthusiastic about your job, you would be committed to results, you would be growing, and you would have access to your peak performance. It would just naturally be, all of these things would be naturally available to you. So, the question is, then goes back, so when I created this environment, so when people actually say, 'I don't feel fulfilled at my job, or I am not making enough money, or I'm not getting the promotion that I want, or I'm not getting along with my boss', then I would say there is a misfit in your Thrive Zone, you're not in your Thrive Zone. So, there are four criteria. So, that's where your four Unique Career Criteria come into play.

Jeremy Cline 12:13
I agree absolutely with those four criteria, they all completely resonate with me. I just wondered, what about other seemingly more mundane criteria, but ones which might still be important? So, things like, I mean, there's the obvious one, how much you need to earn or how much you perceive you need to earn, there's things like location, are you tied to a particular location by reason of family, perhaps, working hours, that sort of thing. What about those sorts of more, I'm going to say more practical, even though that's not right, because what you've just said is practical as much as anything, but those sorts of more mundane criteria?

Misha Rubin 12:57
Yeah, in my programme when I work with people, we definitely look at those. We look at all your considerations, including negotiable and non-negotiable. But to me that comes later. So, we start the exploration with, those are not your unique career criteria, those are your preference, your negotiables, not negotiables, these are the things that you want. And what I call unique career criteria, and the key word is "unique" there, they're really intrinsic to who you are. Truly, this is how you are. Which is distinct from these are the things that I want or prefer. So, in my methodology, I'm separating those others. So, when I look with people in other considerations, you know, whatever, yeah, everything, the money, it's all you will take into account, but we will look at it later on. That's not the starting point of how we look in my methodology. But that's traditionally how people start with. How much money I want to make, this is where I want to work, this are the skills and experience that I have. And that keeps them stuck in this particular loop, because then suddenly, it immediately limits your ideas that you have around where and what you could be doing.

Jeremy Cline 14:13
This question will probably also betray limiting ideas. But is there a sense that you have to be realistic versus ambitious when you're looking at these particular criteria?

Misha Rubin 14:30
Okay, so can I walk you through my method? Because some of it will answer the questions that you're asking, because I literally take people through the journey. And what I start with is really unique career criteria. So, there are four of them. So, the first one is your career values. And your career values is a subset of your life values, and that's your compass for your meaning and fulfilment. So, for instance, my career values are making a difference, clarity and manifesting. And right now, I do the work that 100% aligns with my values, right? So, that's number one. So, if you don't experience meaning and fulfilment, probably there is a career value mismatch between you and what you do, your organisation, your industry. The second piece of the second unique career criteria are your strengths. And your strengths, I call strength something that you use and reliably produce results with.

Jeremy Cline 15:31
Is there any danger that you might be good at something, so it might be a strength, but it's not necessarily something that you actually enjoy?

Misha Rubin 15:40
It could be, but you need to understand your strengths. To me, that's the starting point of things. So, you have a lot of ways to filter out ideas over time, but you want to start with the basic. And if you want to be successful, you want to build and do things that are aligned with your strengths. Strengths also develop, could be developed over time, but you want to build the work that you do based on your strengths, and you don't need to understand where you don't have them. So, that's the second criteria. The third is your motivation mechanism. And motivation mechanism, as humans, we're motivated in a lot of different ways, and for instance, somebody who is a salesperson, like a real-estate salesperson, or any type of salesperson, those people are really motivated by results. So, they're like, 'Okay, I made a sale.' It's great, right? And then, if you take a scientist, for instance, that's doing research. So, if somebody is a scientist, they actually don't know exactly when and what type of results they produce in the research. So, in order to be a scientist, you're actually motivated by the process first and foremost.

Jeremy Cline 16:53
Can you distinguish for me motivation and values? They sound like they're quite similar. So, can you help me out with how motivations and values are different?

Misha Rubin 17:05
Okay, can I finish talking about the values?

Jeremy Cline 17:08
Yeah, sure.

Misha Rubin 17:09
Sorry, can I finish talking about and explaining motivation? So, motivation mechanism is about how we're being motivated. So, some people are motivated by outcomes. It's actually not a function of values, it's like some people really need to, in order to be motivated, motivation mechanisms are actually responsible for experience satisfaction in our job. So, if somebody is motivated by results, and you help them, for instance, start doing an investigation or a research type of work, they're going to be really, really miserable in that. Or the other way around. If you take somebody who is naturally a researcher or a scientist, somebody who likes to dig and explore things, and you give them very strict deadlines and push them to work on a project, that might not be satisfactory for them. Some people are motivated by human connection. And so, that's depending on how you're being, the thing about unique career criteria is about knowing yourself, right? So, if you know how you're being motivated, then you can put yourself in the situations, and you will look for the type of work arrangements and the type of work that's aligned with your motivation mechanisms. And the fourth unique criteria is interpersonal profile. This relates to how you interact with others, is it that you're a type of person who works effectively by yourself, with the team or managing a team, or managing a process, or teaching. So, there is a way we build out your interpersonal profile. So, if you know these four things, so Jeremy, so here it is, so did I, there is a confusion between motivation mechanism and values?

Jeremy Cline 18:58
There is a bit, and also I see a crossover between that and the interpersonal profiles. So, a value might be that you particularly enjoy collaboration or teamwork and that kind of thing, that might be one of your values. Which then influences your interpersonal profile. So, I guess they don't have to be mutually exclusive. I'm just interested in kind of where you draw the line between the values and the motivations and the interpersonal profiles.

Misha Rubin 19:32
You know, it all just happens in the journey. You're right. Usually, what you want to look for, they all have to fit nicely together. So, there will be what you would examine if there is some major contradiction, that would be a problem, you know? But fundamentally, you're right, there will be a relationship between your values and maybe your strengths. There could be some of these things. If one of your value is creativity, it might actually influence the type of strengths you develop, for instance. So, there could be definitely interconnections between all these criteria. But they also don't have to be, they could be very different in the way you examine yourself.

Jeremy Cline 20:16
Okay, so these are the unique criteria. And we touched earlier briefly on what you described as negotiables. To what extent are or should these things always be negotiable? Negotiable implies compromise. So, where do you draw the line when you come to these negotiables? What's the red line, and what are the things that you can perhaps compromise on?

Misha Rubin 20:44
Right. So, there could be negotiables and not negotiables, right, and considerations you can choose. So, when I work with people, once people know their unique career criteria, I work with them on creating their career leap map. And career lead map is truly the list of ideas, it's a comprehensive list of ideas, of where and what they could be doing. And the keyword is "comprehensive". So, at this point of the process, we don't even consider, I don't want people to look at the money, I don't want people to look at where they work, I just want them to develop a pool of ideas. And the way this works, that one idea could lead to the next idea. So, even impractical ideas should end up on this list. We explore different industries, we explore different problems that are being solved in the industry, we are exploring business ideas that somebody might have, re-examining maybe some community aspirations that a person has. So, the idea here is to really develop this list of ideas, and the other interesting thing about the career leap map is that, some of these ideas might seem impractical today, but you can look at this list into three years from now. Right? And you're like, 'Okay, now I'm ready for this idea.' Because I look at life as a series of leaps. And then, once you have that list, then we go through the process of narrowing down, then we look at the things, what should work for your life right now, what's your appetite for risk and how much risk can you take, what are your financial considerations, then we start looking at those ideas. We're not even looking for a specific job yet, but we start narrowing that list down to get to several ideas that you will go on a deep dive.

Jeremy Cline 22:39
Is this a list of potential jobs? Is it a list of activities? So, you know, write a book, something like that. What does the list look like?

Misha Rubin 22:51
Great. So, it's a list of where, what and why. So, where you want to do it, and where could be an industry, where could be a particular company, some people have no particular organisations that they want to work for. What is what you want to be doing there, and why, why you want that. So, the list of ideas could be, 'I want to be a designer in wealth and health industry.' That's how it could start. But it could also be, 'I want to write a book and be a writer', or 'I want to start a business', or 'I want to create a non-profit that solves a particular problem.' So, it could be a variety of different things.

Jeremy Cline 23:37
And is there a way of finding out the unknown unknowns? So, in other words, the sorts of things which might be a brilliant fit for you, but you've just never come across?

Misha Rubin 23:51
That's an excellent question. So, this is where in this phase of the project, we do a lot of exploration and a lot of learning. And one of the things that I work with people is developing their learning habits. So, this is the time when there is a particular industry that's calling you, it's of interest to you. We go through people like listening to podcasts, we live these extraordinary times where there's so much information, so once you get a little bit of direction of where you want to focus, listen to podcasts, so many books are being written ever before. There are many leaders in communities or industries that are very vocal, they create videos or they create white papers. So, there's a lot of information. So, this is where I invite people to go on a deeper research, so first, we're going broad and then we start narrowing it down and trying to go deeper and deeper and deeper. So, this is where people come up, so if you have an interest in energy, for instance, or communications, then you've got to explore that, what's happening in those industries, who are the leaders, what are they talking about, what's next. And that's where people are figuring out what are the different things that they could be doing.

Jeremy Cline 25:06
So, when you've got this list, and it could be a very long list, talk to me about the filtering exercise, how you get it down to something a bit more manageable.

Misha Rubin 25:18
Well, so the first thing, you look and see what's really calling you. Usually, you have a list, and I push people to create the bigger list the better, at this point, at that particular point, right? And then I ask 'What's really calling you?' And they would narrow it down. And usually, there would be three, four or five things that's calling. Then we keep looking. So, I developed this methodology of how to do the examination. So, once you narrow down to a few, then we continue doing this deeper dive process. We look at what's and why's, so what it is and why you want it. So, you really get clear with yourself about is this the path that you really want to take. I will actually use myself as an example. So, there was a moment in my life where I decided that all I wanted to do is fight terrorism. And I decided to get a job in FBI. So, I went through the whole exercise of researching things. Believe it or not, I ended up actually getting a job offer. But I decided not to take it. So, I developed this way of people to assess different opportunities, what's and why's, so you're clear that's what you want and why. The second piece would be, we'll look at skills, experience and knowledge gaps. So, that's where you can become a little bit more practical and see what are my gaps, do I need to learn something, what is transferable, what's not. And then, we do a deeper dive where I encourage people to find a mentor in a particular industry, that they can actually get somebody who is already on the other side, they could have these conversations with them to see whether they really want that.

Jeremy Cline 27:07
Coming back to the question about compromise. Where do you see people, maybe at least initially, need to make compromises when they go through this exercise?

Misha Rubin 27:20
So, I would say, I think about compromises later. Because what happens when you start making compromises too early, you actually cut out a lot of ideas. So, that's why I will say, 'No, don't worry about compromises, we will take into the account. Go think big, think practical, be pragmatic.' My job is for people to be connected to the highest self they could be, but still be grounded. So, it's only you look at your leaps, and you do the research of your leaps, we will go through this preparation phase. So, you're very clear. These are maybe my knowledge gaps. These are my financial considerations. Different people are in different situations. Some people say, 'Well, I'm okay making less money for the next year. Or I am okay going to school.' Some people are like, 'No, I actually cannot do this, I really need to work for my family.' So, some people have these financial considerations. So, for some people, it's really thinking about, do I do the same type of work, but in a different industry. So, that's one of the ways to manage your leap. If I'm, for instance, an accountant, and I work for a financial industry, and I work with a lot of accountants in my lifetime. But I'm done. And I really want to move into some other area that's, you know, and they're interested in human relationships, and things like that. So, one of the easy leap is, could I get a similar type of a position but in a different industry, for instance. That's one of the ways. But that way, you'll end up in a different industry. And if your goal actually is to get out of accounting, for instance, then you could carve your path, maybe you need to take additional education, maybe when you will be in the industry, there will be other opportunities for you to move forward. But I usually invite people only when they're clear about what their leap is, and when they choose their leap, they have a sense of practicality, of how big of a stretch it is, or what level of preparation it is. Only then start thinking like, 'So, how much money I would be making?' That's part of the exploration, to see whether this leap will work for their life.

Jeremy Cline 29:35
I think you make a really important point there about this being a progression. It doesn't have to be all or nothing from the off. Because I think that's one of the things that really puts people off and that people really worry about, that they're suddenly going to go into a complete career change. They're going to need to go back into school, they're not going to be earning as much money. And if people can get their head around what you're suggesting, that maybe you don't have to make that immediately all the way from A to D, you can go via B and C first, that it becomes more manageable, especially if you can look into the future and see events which will make that more manageable. So, let's say you know that in five years' time, you're going to put your kids through college, and you're not going to need to be looking after them, hopefully, they will have their own jobs, that kind of thing. So, at that stage, you'll know that you're in a different place to where you are now.

Misha Rubin 30:34
Yeah, but I think what's great about now, and I look at life as series of leaps, right? So, it's never like just one leap, and you're done. Right? But it would be great if you found your direction, and then you start maybe making steps towards that, start actually aiming and see. Do I want to change my industry? Do i want to start changing my roles? Do I want to start changing my skills? So, you don't really want to put off your life for five years and suffer and struggle. I think you can take and choose and make leaps now that are taking you towards that direction?

Jeremy Cline 31:12
People change over time. People's life circumstances change, and people's values change. So, how often should you kind of go through this exercise of identifying your unique career criteria? And how much should you be aware of the fact that things could change in the future?

Misha Rubin 31:38
It's an excellent, excellent question. So, when I work with people, I want values to be 'this is who I am'. I want them to be known for their values. I want their values to guide their decision-making process, from mundane day-to-day situations to some big life decisions. So, if you are really in touch with your value system, and value is truly a conversation for you, then you probably will be very acute to your values changes. That's number one. So, if you are in the conversation of values, and if you are using your values as a criteria, at some point, you'll see there are mismatches, you will know it's time to review. But the great time to review everything is if you're planning a change. So, if you are thinking, 'So, what's next for me?'. If you're making any decision about your career. It's a great time to say, 'Well, are those still my values? Have I developed new strengths? Am I still being motivated like this?' It's good to review all these things. And they do change.

Jeremy Cline 32:50
I always like to try and give my listeners some practical tips. So, if you've got someone who is feeling in this unaligned state, and they're contemplating making changes, what's the first one or two things that they can do by themselves to start exploring this?

Misha Rubin 33:10
So, this is what I firmly believe. The way, I don't know how, as humans we are designed in this particular way, but the way our consciousness and our mind work, they are a little bit like a swamp. And they like to hold us in, in a status quo. So, some of these changes that we're talking about, it's very hard to do by taking very little actions, just like, 'Okay, let me once a month do like a little thing here, a little bit there.' So, my recommendation is always, if you are exploring change, and I'm not saying that you even need to make it, but if you're just interested in exploring change, you know, put a goal for yourself. Create a lot of actions around that. If you want to explore, then read books, listen to podcasts, inquire yourself who you are, get a coach, don't just spread it out over years. Because if you start taking this very slow approach, what's likely to happen, your status quo, the swamp of your status quo will keep sucking you in, back and back. So, my recommendation for people, you know, don't even commit to making a change. But if you're exploring change, do it in a forceful way. Meaning, go read books, listen to podcasts, get a coach, talk to your friends, talk to your family, examine, find a mentor, do a lot of things in a short period of time to create a little bit of momentum, and then see what will happen.

Jeremy Cline 34:50
And on the subject of books or podcasts, are there any which you would particularly recommend that people will maybe start with?

Misha Rubin 34:57
So, the book that I will recommend goes really against the advice that I just gave. But this is for a different purpose. I realised for myself personally how important our habits are. Because habits are something that we do day in and day out. And they accumulate. So, whether your habits around money or around relationships or around health, if you have the right strategy, and I think where people get stuck is with goals, and the goals that we want to achieve something and then, you know, I want to run a marathon or I want to lose that much weight. And what happens then? So, I recommend people, instead of thinking of big goals in their personal life, developing great habits, and I would recommend the book that's called Tiny Habits by BJ Fogg. This is a book that truly changed my life. So, if you want to, so this is the distinction that I want to make, if you want to cause a little bit of a stir and revolution in your life and make a change, like a big change, like changing career, I recommend you to take a lot of actions in a short period of time. But if you want to impact your lifelong habits, the book Tiny Habits talks about how to start tiny, with little things, I highly recommend that.

Jeremy Cline 36:15
Fantastic. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. Misha, this has been a wonderful conversation. There's so much useful stuff there. Where would you like people to go so they can find out more about you?

Misha Rubin 36:26
You can find me at misharubin.com. That's my website that has a lot of good information about me, my work, my programmes, my podcasts, some online courses, you can set up free Career Clarity Call with me also. So, yeah.

Jeremy Cline 36:45
I will put a link to that in the show notes as well. Misha, as I said, some really, really great stuff. And thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Misha Rubin 36:53
Thank you, Jeremy. It was a pleasure.

Jeremy Cline 36:56
Okay, hope you enjoyed that interview with Misha Rubin. I loved the traps, which Misha identified at the beginning of this interview, particularly the skills and experience trap. So, you go out looking for a job knowing that you've got X skills and Y experience. So, what is it you can do with that experience and those skills? You look for jobs which match those skills and experience, and what a surprise! You end up in a loop. You find a job where you're doing the same kind of stuff and find it equally dissatisfying. It's something I see so many times on job discussion boards. People go, 'Well, here's my CV, here's my education, here's my experience, what can I do with it?' That's not the question. That's just going to lead you to doing more of the same. Whilst what Misha has done is to come up with a framework to help you figure out what your values are, what your strengths are, what your motivations are, how you interact with other people, and use that framework to explore what sort of a job might be good for you. I also really liked what Misha was saying about creating actions to avoid the status quo. So, they don't have to be big actions. But it could just be taking a step towards exploring something. That's the thing about the whole career change process, is it doesn't have to be a, 'Oh, I've got to do all this in one go. I've got to figure out exactly what I want to do and go and change it.' You've got the opportunity to take your time and to explore things and figure out what's right. You'll find the show notes for this episode on the Change Work Life website there at changeworklife.com/124. That's changeworklife.com/124 for episode 124. And I mentioned this last time, but if you haven't seen them already, I've got a couple of exercises on my website to help you start this process of discovery. If you go to changeworklife.com/happy, that's changeworklife.com/happy, H-A-P-P-Y, you'll be able to get the exercises there, and it really does give you a great starting point. One of the exercises encourages you to look back at your career history to figure out the things that you liked and didn't like. And the second exercise helps you look forward to work out, well, just what is it you want from different aspects of your life, what is it you want from a financial perspective, from a health perspective, from a social perspective, and so on. There's also a third bonus exercise. So, if those exercises sound like they might be helpful to you, then the URL again, go to changeworklife.com/happy, that's changeworklife.com/happy. In two weeks' time, we've got another great episode, so if you haven't already subscribed to the show, make sure you do subscribe, and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. Cheers. Bye.

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