Episode 174: How to build successful relationships at work (and why you should do it) – with Nicolas Rion

The relationships you have with people at work can have a huge impact on your happiness and overall well-being.

But what can you do to nurture and improve those relationships?  How can you be intentional about setting up good working relationships? 

Nicolas Rion is a life and executive coach who specialises in helping people become confident at building supportive relationships that stand the test of time. 

He explains how to improve the relationships you have at work, communicate with people about your needs and build trust and support with colleagues. 

He also talks about what it means to have emotional intelligence, how your behaviour affects your relationships and the importance of identifying what you need from particular relationships.

Today’s guest

Nicolas Rion

Website: Nicolas Rion

LinkedIn: Nicolas Rion

Nicolas Rion is a relationship coach who supports individuals to build strong, healthy and sustainable relationships in both their professional and personal lives.

His knowledge of relationships was, in many ways, learned the hard way.  After losing his mother as a teenager and experiencing a challenging start to his professional life in the corporate world, where he often felt like a fish out of water, Nicolas embarked on a journey of self-discovery, which ultimately led him to coaching.

Nicolas started coaching in 2017, and has trained with one of the world’s leading coaching schools, the Co-Active Training Institute, accredited by the International Coaching Foundation.  Nicolas is also trained in nonviolent communication, a framework for resolving conflict through empathy, honesty, strength and compassion.

Nicolas helps his clients build relationships based on honesty, self-respect and equality and works with them to improve their communication and self-confidence so they can build strong, healthy relationships which lead to fulfilling personal lives and professional success.

Nicolas grew up in Burgundy, France.  He currently lives in East London, but loves to spend his free time travelling or kitesurfing in Sussex or further afield.

What you’ll learn in this episode

  • [1:51] Why Nicolas became a relationship specialist. 
  • [3:10] What it means to have emotional intelligence. 
  • [4:50] The importance of self-care in emotional intelligence. 
  • [6:15] How you can coach individuals to be better in relationships. 
  • [7:28] The benefits of coaching one person in a relationship instead of couples coaching. 
  • [8:13] The importance of having positive relationships in your life. 
  • [10:12] The type of relationships you should build at work. 
  • [12:30] Why it’s important to be intentional in the relationships you build. 
  • [14:28] How to have intent with the relationships you make at work.
  • [15:50] Ways to approach a relationship that is lacking in a certain aspect. 
  • [19:30] How to respond to a manager who isn’t empathetic to your situation. 
  • [22:36] The type of interactions you need with colleagues to build strong relationships. 
  • [26:26] How to know if you can trust someone. 
  • [26:48] How much you should separate your work life and personal life. 
  • [28:07] The problems with not wanting to socialise at work. 
  • [31:57] Building relationships that make it easy to solve conflicts. 
  • [33:39] How to make conflicts easy to solve.
  • [33:48] How maximising trust and support in a relationship enables conflict to be resolved. 
  • [36:26] The best way to respond to a potential conflict. 
  • [38:42] How easy it is to have successful relationships.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Please note that some of these are affiliate links and we may get a commission in the event that you make a purchase.  This helps us to cover our expenses and is at no additional cost to you.

Episode 174: How to build successful relationships at work (and why you should do it) - with Nicolas Rion

Jeremy Cline 0:00
The relationships you have with people at work can have a huge impact on your happiness and overall wellbeing. So, what can you do to nurture and improve those relationships? That's what we're going to find out in this week's episode. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work Life.

Jeremy Cline 0:31
Hello, and welcome to Change Work Life where we're all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. If you want to know how you can enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life, you're in the right place. And if you hit subscribe, or plus, or follow on whatever app you're using to listen, you won't miss any of the great interviews I've got coming up. So, make sure you do that now. It always surprises me just how much my enjoyment of work depends on how well I get on with the people around me. When I'm working with people that I like and where there's mutual respect, trust and support, even the toughest tasks can become that bit easier. So, apart from just generally being a nice person to work with, what are some of the things you can do to be intentional about creating good relationships at work? And how can you set up these relationships so that, if conflict arises, you can work through without damaging the relationship? To help answer these questions and more, my guest this week is Nicolas Rion. Nick is a life and executive coach who specialises in helping people to become confident at building supportive relationships which stand the test of time. Nick, welcome to the podcast.

Nicolas Rion 1:43
Thank you very much, Jeremy, thanks for having me.

Jeremy Cline 1:46
So, why relationships? What made you specialise in this?

Nicolas Rion 1:50
Yeah, so the answer is pretty simple. I have a pretty big interest into everything that relates to emotional intelligence. And obviously, emotional intelligence is used mostly in relationships and everything around leadership and all those things. So, that's why I touch this topic quite a lot. I really like how emotional intelligence impacts the relationships that we build in our lives. And also, I find very important how relationships drive how fulfilling a life we have, albeit personal, professional. There's a quote that I like to say, we can live without relationships, but we thrive thanks to relationships. Right? So, one way to make us thrive is to have good relationships.

Jeremy Cline 2:57
And you mentioned there emotional intelligence, which is a phrase I've heard quite often, but can you just give us a brief definition of what emotional intelligence actually means?

Nicolas Rion 3:09
Yeah, sure. So, I like to say it's a set of skills, because it demystifies it a little bit. A set of skills that allows us to manage our emotions, in order to gain communications and social skills, and also self-management. It has three big components, which is self-awareness, self-management, and self-care. It's very much about self. But also, when you have a very good understanding of yourself or of your emotions, when they're triggered by what needs, what are the needs that you have, and you are very good at managing them and using them as data in situations, then you're much more able to control what impacts you have outside of yourself, on the people outside and the situation outside of yourself. And, obviously, that helps a lot with everything in conversations, situations, how you manage particularly difficult situations, also, how you communicate to others, how you engage others, how you bring people together. All that has a huge impact on everything that related to others.

Jeremy Cline 3:09
The three things you mentioned there, self-awareness, self-management and self-care, I feel like self-care is probably the one that gets neglected or doesn't come up so often. So, can you talk about the importance of that in emotional intelligence?

Nicolas Rion 3:09
Yeah, sure. So, self-care is all about, your needs are you, and ignoring them will lead to feeling bad about yourself, but also, understanding that sometimes you need to be by yourself. Sometimes you need fun, sometimes you need, and not ignoring that, some people, for example, one that I usually mention is the amount of stress that people can handle. We don't have the same level of stress that we can all handle. Some people can handle very high levels, some people very low levels. And having an understanding of that is self-awareness, but also, self-care is making sure that you don't go higher than that level. Right? That's self-care. And when you get to that level, it's saying, 'No, that's where I need to stop. That's where I need to care for myself.'

Jeremy Cline 6:08
One thing about relationships is that they inevitably involve at least two people. So, how much can you do with one-on-one coaching where relationships are involved, given that there are going to be at least two people to a relationship?

Nicolas Rion 6:25
I like this question. I often get it. Well, it's quite simple, you can change your own behaviour. It's much more difficult to change the other's behaviour. There is a quote from Paulo Coelho that you might know, that says, you change the world through your actions, not your opinions. And for me, it really means that, if you have the right behaviours, if you have the right actions, people around you will get inspired. So, exactly the same when you're in any relationship, if you behave in the way that is according to your values and with everything that makes a relationship great, your partner, the other person in the relationship will automatically benefit from it.

Jeremy Cline 7:24
Do you ever find as part of your practice that you are coaching the relationship itself, so the two people, or do you ever just focus on the one person?

Nicolas Rion 7:33
I focus on the one person. Why? It's because those people come to my practice with the objective to improve their relationships, or improve their skills in relationship building. But in any case, they know it comes from them. They don't come and say, 'Save my relationship.' They come and say, 'I need to get better at it.' Does that make sense?

Jeremy Cline 8:05
Yes. Yes, it does. Let's talk a little bit in broad terms on the importance of relationships generally. Something I heard recently was that relationships, and we're not necessarily talking about romantic relationships, but it could include that, but the relationships and strong relationships can play into things even like life expectancy.

Nicolas Rion 8:30
Never heard about that, but I don't doubt it. I mean, there's one thing that I like to talk about, all the chemicals that we have in our body where different chemicals are triggered depending on different situations, like dopamine, one, oxytocin, et cetera, oxytocin, I think, is the chemical of love. There is one that is cortisol, that is a chemical of stress. And it's been proven, so cortisol is a chemical that you can have in your body, but you need to have it at little doses, and your body is going to expulse it as soon as you don't need it anymore. Because obviously, in life, you will have stressful situations, but they need to be short. And if you experience them for too long, that means you flood your body with cortisol constantly. And that is very bad for your body. Right? So, it's exactly the same thing, if you're in a relationship that is stressful, and you're constantly stressed about it and anxious about it, then your body is full of cortisol constantly, and that's not good. That's not healthy. So, if there is maybe one thing that I know, it's this, I don't know if it lowers your expectancy, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Jeremy Cline 9:59
When it comes to talking about relationships at work, how context specific are they? So, I mean, how much do they depend on where you work, the job you do, that kind of thing?

Nicolas Rion 10:12
The type of relationship that you build?

Jeremy Cline 10:15
Yeah. I mean, are there principles which can apply to all work situations, or do they tend to depend rather more on the specifics of the situation?

Nicolas Rion 10:25
I think, in life and at work in general, relationships have both breadth and depth. What does that mean? So, a relationship can be only to bring you lightness, or introspection, or support, or anything. It can be broad, meaning that a relationship can bring you a bit of everything. But a relationship can also bring you only one thing, but a lot of it. A lot of support, for example. So, considering that, what do you need at work? Do you need love? Maybe not so much. But you might need support, right? A lot more than you might need in your personal life. So, depending on that, the new characteristics of relationships that you build are going to be a bit different. I think it's more about what characteristic you want from those relationships. What do you want in those situations, when you're at work, or when you are in your personal life? Some people at work build relationships that are only professional. That means there's a lot of trust, a lot of support, but it's very direct, and like no nonsense kind of relationship. While in their personal lives, they want lightness and love and affection and all those things. They separate both, but you don't have to. It's very much what you want to do. So, to answer your question, I think it might differ, sometimes not. Some people look for exactly the same thing at work and in their personal lives.

Jeremy Cline 12:25
So, I've generally always thought of relationships at work as being pretty organic. I mean, you're thrown in with the people that you're working with, and you might chat with them, and then you'll work with other people in an organisation, and some of them you get on with, and some of them you don't. I mean, how would you start to think about it in terms of intent, so in terms of what you were just saying then, about what you might need, but also other ways the relationships could support your work?

Nicolas Rion 12:58
It's a really good question. To be honest, I think relationships in life are also very organic. This is the way we build relationships as human beings. We build them organically. And there's nothing wrong with that, I think. The troubles come when relationships don't bring you what you need from life. And then, you need to ask yourself those questions and build those relationships intentionally, with intention, rather than organically. I like to consider that we should always have a bit of intention in our relationships. Why? I think it's because we need to have a bit of self-awareness in those relationships, to bring a bit of awareness of what we need from those, and if we're getting it. Because sometimes it's very easy to just forget and spend, I don't know, a couple of years without asking ourselves a question, and then realising that, actually, that's not what I want, and being a bit unhappy about it, if that makes sense. So, I really think that having a bit of awareness is good. And ultimately, building relationship with intention. So, how do we go about it? Honestly, we don't all have the same awareness. So, when I say I need support from this relationship, not everyone is able to say that and is aware of that. I think it's interesting to look at situations that you encounter with the people that you have relationships with. Let's talk particularly at work, if you're with your colleagues in a meeting, so that's a situation, and then you realise that you feel a bit frustrated about the situation, then just asking yourself a question where does it come from, and if you identify that a relationship is not working, and that's where that frustration is coming from, then identify what's missing in that relationship. That kind of links to the work of nonviolent communication where you link needs with feelings. But actually, the first that comes is not need, it's feelings. So, you understand first your feelings, and then you link that to your needs.

Jeremy Cline 13:40
Okay, and this comes back to the self-awareness piece that you were talking in emotional intelligence.

Nicolas Rion 15:47
Exactly, yes.

Jeremy Cline 15:49
So, if you identify something that's lacking in a particular relationship or within the relationships that you might have, say, in your own team, is the approach to try to introduce something new into that relationship, or is it a case of finding someone else who can perhaps provide whatever it is that you need?

Nicolas Rion 16:23
Well, the first approach is really to give that person a chance to provide it. Because you don't know, if you've never mentioned it, or if you've never made it clear, how can the other guess what you need? And that's the first rule of communication, first rule of engagement, is to be clear about what you need, and work with that person, so that they can support you with that need. Usually, if you have a good relationship, that will happen, but it doesn't have to. We say that the other person is not responsible for your feelings, they're only responsible for fulfilling your needs, if they can. If they can't, that should be fine. We can't force anyone to fulfil our needs. So, then, you can look at either who else can provide that, or do I really need it. Because sometimes it's like, oh, I have this need, but maybe I don't have to fulfil it, maybe I can fulfil it outside of work. It doesn't have to be fulfilled in that specific moment. Let's talk about an example, because I think this is all kind of abstract.

Jeremy Cline 17:55
That'd be helpful.

Nicolas Rion 17:55
Let's say that you are in a meeting with your manager. And there's trouble at home, for example, your children are sick. And you are very stressed about it, you have a lot of worry for them. At that moment, your manager comes to you and asks you to work harder or deliver something that will add work to you. At that moment, you have a certain need that is, okay, I need support, I need to breathe. But your manager doesn't know that. So, at least communicate it. It's pretty simple. I think everyone does that nowadays. Or everyone should. It's simply, 'Look, this is a situation at the moment, I'm a bit struggling with this, I have my children sick, and I need to spend more time with them or whatever the problem is, I really need you to support me with this.' Your manager will likely be, 'Okay, how can we work with that? Let's find a solution together.' But if you don't mention it, it's never going to happen.

Jeremy Cline 19:20
Hopefully, your line manager would be like that. But everyone who's listening to this has probably experienced the sort of manager who doesn't react like that and who possibly takes a different approach, who maybe goes, 'Well, you know, that's your own home problems, don't bring them to work', or whatever it might be. And as you said, the other person is not responsible for your emotions or meeting your needs if they are unable to. So, in those circumstances, I mean, yeah, what can that person do?

Nicolas Rion 19:57
First of all, there is having that understanding also of that person's needs, that's the second step. Your manager might have some very urgent need. They might have this exact same problem. They can't help you because they're so stressed about a delivery issue that they have to fulfil. And they can't help you because of that. It can be that too. But if you don't find that out, you will never be able to say, if you find out, you might be able to say, 'Oh, actually, I know this person can help you with this, and so we can find a common solution to our problem.' But if you don't try, if you don't try and find out, then you will never be able to have that conversation. Now, it's really hard to have that conversation, because it requires the other person in front of you to be open about their situation, too. And it doesn't always happen. Then, I think the solution after that is really to consider what you can do and what you cannot do, and be very honest about it. You need to maintain your boundaries, obviously, your children are more important than a job, I think. The health of your children is more important than your job, potentially.

Jeremy Cline 21:28
You'd hope so.

Nicolas Rion 21:29
Yes, obviously, I'm really bid torn when I say that, because there's obviously potentially more behind it. But let's simplify it for the matter at hand. If it is, then you can have conversations with obviously other people, your colleagues, HR, et cetera, you can expand it to try and find a solution. I think what's important is to be in a collaboration mode. People are not, I always come from the fact that people come with good intentions. If someone is not ready to fulfil your needs, then there's probably still a good intention behind it. And either you try and find out why and try to help them, or you try to get help from others. But always in collaboration. Let's try and work together towards a solution that works for everyone else, for everyone.

Jeremy Cline 22:34
When it comes to building relationships with work colleagues, I mean, there's those interactions which you have, which are, if you'd like, quite transactional. In other words, they relate to the work that you're doing. So, you will be discussing a particular project or a particular piece of work or that kind of thing. And there's ways you can conduct yourself in those interactions. Would you say that those sorts of interactions can be sufficient for building the relationships that you want with work colleagues? Or is it better to strive for those other interactions, where you're not just talking about work, where you're having the chit chat and that kind of thing?

Nicolas Rion 23:22
In any relationship, so we will talk about it maybe later, but if you want a relationship that supports your work, let's say, let's talk about professional relationships, if you want it to support your work, support you in achieving your objectives, those relationships need to have at least two ingredients that are very important, that is trust and support. If you don't have a trusting relationship, it's a risk. It's a risk because, I use an expression, it's like climbing. Have you ever done rock climbing?

Jeremy Cline 24:05
Tiny little bit.

Nicolas Rion 24:06
You climb a rock, a big rock, you climb quite high, and you use a rope. The rope links to people between them. The rope is a relationship. You need to maintain it, you need to make sure it's in good shape. It needs to be not too rigid, so otherwise, if you fall, it's going to hurt, so it needs to be slightly elastic. It needs to be also not too elastic, because otherwise if you fall, then the other person will not have time to catch you. It's a bit like that. Relationships are a little bit like that. You need to maintain that relationship. And you know what makes its strength and its elasticity, that is the trust and the support. If you don't, then when you climb, and you don't have a good quality rope, then I can tell you that you're going to be pretty stressed. You're not going to do a good job. So, to your question and what should I do in terms of activities in relationship, you need to do activities that will maintain that relationship, maintain that trust, maintain that support. And what are those activities? They can be working on a project together and fighting hard to meet a deadline. That builds trust, especially when you work in collaboration. But also, external activities, doing things where both people are vulnerable. So, if you do a cooking activity, if none of the persons in a relationship know about cooking, then I'm pretty sure they're going to be both vulnerable in this activity. And why it's important? It's because vulnerability builds trust. The perfect example for that is when you show yourself naked, in figurative terms, and the person doesn't make use of that, doesn't make fun of it or anything, then you can trust that person. That's vulnerability. That makes sense?

Jeremy Cline 26:23
Yeah, I think what I'm picking up then is you kind of need to test the waters with the vulnerability to see whether or not you can trust that person. The vulnerability comes before the trust to demonstrate the trust, rather than having the trust first, and then being vulnerable because you can trust them.

Nicolas Rion 26:41
Yes, you need to be vulnerable to build trust, both ways.

Jeremy Cline 26:47
And how far do you extend that? Because there's the idea of bringing your whole self to work, but then there's oversharing, there's possibly not wanting to have this pollution between home life and work life and just not wanting to bring everything. You kind of go to work to get away from all the other stuff in your life. So, where, if anywhere, are the boundaries?

Nicolas Rion 27:18
Let's imagine you go swimming. You don't jump in 10 metres deep water right away. You dip your feet first. And then, you advance, you go forward to a point where you feel confident, and up to a point where you're like, 'I'm satisfied, I have the depth that I want, I'm mid body or to my head, and I'm confident, and I have what I need.' You do the same thing in any relationship. You dip your feet first. And then, you go a bit forward, and you see if you're still confident, and this is still what you need. That's exactly the same thing.

Jeremy Cline 28:06
There are some people who, for whatever reason, don't really want to talk to anyone at work. They just want to go in, do their job, have as little interaction as they can possibly get away with, and then go home. At the risk of using quite a strong word, is that approach wrong?

Nicolas Rion 28:27
I'm not sure there's wrong or right. What I would say, there's two things on this. First thing is, usually, either they're not comfortable with building relationship, and in that case, there's something to be said. It can be helped. It can be, we can help them in that sense. Maybe they don't need it. And in that case, it's like, well, if you don't need it, you don't need it. But the second thing that I would say is, you're working in an environment, and what drives the need of building relationship is not only you. If you're part of a team, and you decide that you don't want to build those relationships, and your business, the company you work for, needs that team to be productive and efficient, then there is a conflict here. Why? Because we know that teams work better when there is a good relationship and trust between its team members. Efficiency and productivity of a team are highly dependent on the quality of relationship that there is between team members. And so, if someone says, 'I don't want to build relationships', the business has a right to say, 'Yes, but I want my team to be efficient.' Does that make sense? What I'm saying here is, when you're by yourself, you're by yourself. You do what you want. But when you're at work, you're part of a business, and there are objectives that this business needs to reach. And if the quality of the team, the efficiency of a team is a requirement, then you need to meet that requirement. Now, it doesn't mean that, if you're introvert, you need to force yourself into having great extroverted relationships. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, you need to adapt to your personality, absolutely, but there's still something to be done. You can't just be by yourself and not working with anyone, not having any relationship. That makes sense?

Jeremy Cline 30:51
I think so. And I think people sometimes confuse things like introversion and shyness and social anxiety, fear of feeling like you don't know how to have these conversations, when in practice, of course you do, you have conversations all the time, it's just a question of starting with, 'Hello, how are you doing?'

Nicolas Rion 31:13
Some people, and I'm one of them, I think, more and more, get tired with a certain type of interaction. For example, small talk, if we talk just small talk, I don't especially like small talk, I don't thrive in it. I get tired by small talk. So, obviously, that's not something I'm going to try to have. But that doesn't mean that I don't want any interaction. I can have other types of interactions and just be honest with myself and with others. When it comes to small talk, I'm not there. Right? That's all.

Jeremy Cline 31:53
I promised when I introduced you that we would talk about building relationships in a way that makes it easy to solve conflict. So, can you talk a little bit about that?

Nicolas Rion 32:04
Yeah, so that kind of relates to what I said earlier. Let's talk about conflicts a little bit. Conflicts are necessary. They are just a disagreement, technically, they're just a disagreement, and we need disagreements in relationships to make them evolve. So, we need them. The tricky bit is that they are often painful. And they're painful, because they're emotional, and because we don't have the self-awareness, self-management to be able to disassociate that. And so, we tend to avoid conflicts, because we don't want the pain. But what if I told you that conflicts don't have to be painful. I'm sure you have had, or you have a relationship where you can have conflicts, but they're never painful. And they're not painful because you trust that person. Then, when there is a disagreement, it's for the good of a relationship. The amount, the more trust and support you have in a relationship, the tougher the conflict you can have. So, the more trust and support, the higher the conflict you can have without it being painful. If the conflict is painful, that means you don't have enough trust and support in that relationship. That makes sense?

Jeremy Cline 33:38
So, is it as simple as maximising the relationship for trust and support, and that is the way that you will be able to manage conflict?

Nicolas Rion 33:48
That will make it easy to solve any conflict.

Jeremy Cline 33:52
It sounds too simple.

Nicolas Rion 33:53
It does. It does, absolutely. When I discovered that, because obviously, I have relationships where it's painful, and I have relationships when it's not, I have relationships where when we have a disagreement, it never is painful. When I've done some introspection in there, I discovered that, because I know that the intention of the person in front of me is to support me, to help me, to help that relationship move forward.

Jeremy Cline 34:28
That takes quite a lot, actually, doesn't it? To have that feeling that the reason for the conflict is to trust the person in front of you to have your best interests at heart, rather than having their own interests at heart.

Nicolas Rion 34:43
I would say it's not about their interests or your interests. It's about whether, or whatever your interests or their interest, their goal is to make the relationship move forward. That makes sense? So, then obviously, they take your interest into account, and they are very clear about their interests, and then they try to find a way for this relationship to evolve that will meet both. Again, that's what I was saying earlier, collaboration is the word here.

Jeremy Cline 35:26
And I wonder whether it comes to your own mental processes on that, that if you can train yourself to assume that, you assume that the other person wants to advance the relationship and wants to manage all the competing interests and wants to work through it, if you just start from the point where this is what I believe, then you kind of almost, without necessarily having to get evidence of that, if you start from the point that if I just assume that that's what's going to happen, then that gets you there. Is that making any kind of sense?

Nicolas Rion 36:07
You can do that. Yeah, you can force yourself to believe that they want the same thing as you do. Or you can have that conversation.

Jeremy Cline 36:19
Yeah, well, maybe it's choosing to believe, rather than forcing to believe, so say someone says something, and you could interpret it one of two different ways, and one of which makes you feel pain. But if you interpret it the other way, it actually is okay. And you choose to believe that it was intended in the okay way. And you might not have any evidence one way or the other, but just choosing to believe that maybe takes the sting out.

Nicolas Rion 36:46
You can do that. Or you can, how to say, I would add something to this. I like your idea of choosing to believe. However, this is an assumption. And there's nothing wrong with checking it. You can just go to the other person and say, 'Look, this is how I'm thinking, the place where I'm thinking you're coming from when you say this. Is that correct?' Checking your assumption, being curious about it, that's the first step

Jeremy Cline 37:20
I might be a bit fearful of asking the question in case, the answer is no.

Nicolas Rion 37:25
If the answer is no, they will correct you. The only tricky bit here is that they might, it's really hard not to come from a judgmental place. What I'm saying is, if you ask that question, they might feel like they're being judged. But it's not really. It's you checking an assumption. And you can just communicate it this way, by the way, you can just say, 'I'm making this assumption, and I just want to check, I just want to make sure that I'm not making a wrong assumption here.' Okay? And that means that, if you're wrong, it's you being wrong. So, that puts it on you, not on them. Again, you can control how you feel, you can't control how they will feel about your question. But that's not up to you anymore.

Jeremy Cline 38:20
Nick, I'm conscious that there's an awful lot of other stuff which we could talk about, which I don't think we have time to. Is there anything else in the last minute or so which you just feel like, 'Yeah, I've got to say this, this is something that I think is really important that people take away from this conversation'?

Nicolas Rion 38:39
I would say, and this is something that, when I understood this, it kind of changed my life. Having successful relationships and building relationships that bring you what you need in life, it's not rocket science. It's actually pretty easy once you understand the principle of it. Then, there is a potentially long work ahead that you have to do on yourself. Because increasing your self-awareness, your self-management, and self-care can be a lot of work. But once you start, the first step is the hardest. After that, you will get it wrong, but you will constantly improve. It's not about being perfect. It's only about increasing this as much as you can across your life. That's it.

Jeremy Cline 39:48
Nick, if someone wants to dive into the topic a bit more, what resources could you recommend they take a look at?

Nicolas Rion 39:55
Yeah, one book that I wanted to reference at, I talked a little bit about it earlier, it's Nonviolent Communication. And it's a book that was written by Marshall Rosenberg. I've read it years ago, and I can't recommend it enough. It's a very easy book to read, and it gives a very good perspective on everything that we've talked about.

Jeremy Cline 40:24
And where should people go if they want to find out more about you?

Nicolas Rion 40:27
Sure. So, they can go to my website, so nicolasrion.com. And I also have a document that they can download for free, just to have a look, that is called the 10 Habits of Successful Relationships. A lot that we talked about today lays in there, and there's a lot more. And yeah, they can just have a look and see how that's helpful for them.

Jeremy Cline 40:53
Terrific. Well, thank you, Nick, for a fascinating conversation, and for coming on and sharing your expertise.

Nicolas Rion 41:01
Thank you, Jeremy. I very much enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for having me.

Jeremy Cline 41:06
Okay, hope you enjoyed that interview with Nicolas Rion. Given that relationships inevitably involve at least two people, I was really interested to find out from Nick just what one person on their own could do to influence, to nurture, and to improve relationships. And it was really interesting how he encouraged us to focus a lot on our self, self-awareness, self-management, and self-care. Self-care is one of those things that, I think, we just often overlook it. We kind of think, oh, you know what, we'll put ourselves second to all the other demands that we have facing us. But it was clear from the interview with Nicolas that self-care is as much an aspect of relationships as all the other things he identified. And for those of you who say that you just want to get on with your work and never have to talk to anyone, do bear in mind what Nick said about how relationships can be important for building up the efficiency of a business. If you're part of a team, and that team has to work together in order to deliver something, then, inevitably, the relationships within that team are going to affect how efficiently that deliverable is met. So, if you say you don't want to interact with anyone else at work, then maybe you want to think about what sort of interactions would be okay. Show notes for this episode are at changeworklife.com/174, that's changeworklife.com/174, where you'll find a full transcript, a summary of everything we've talked about and links to resources mentioned, as always. And this is one of those episodes which bears sharing. There's so much in here which isn't just going to help you, but it's going to help the people around you, the people you work with, your friends, family. Don't keep it to yourself. Get the word out, share this episode. There's another great interview coming up in two weeks' time, so make sure that you've subscribed to the show if you haven't already, and I can't wait to see you in two weeks' time. Cheers. Bye.

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