Episode 28A: Hiring, jobs and recruitment in the time of COVID-19 – with Margaret Buj, Interview Coach

Episode 28A: Hiring, jobs and recruitment in the time of COVID-19 - with Margaret Buj, Interview Coach

Jeremy Cline 0:15
Hello, and welcome to the Change Work Life podcast. So this is a special episode. It's in response to the novel coronavirus, Covid-19, and the situation that's going on at the moment. It's a bit weird, isn't it? We've got countries in various states of lockdown, we've got some businesses who've been told to shut - particularly in the leisure and tourism industries - we've got people who've been instructed to work from home. And there seems to be quite a lot of anxiety about at the moment with jobs, recruitment, so on. So I'm really delighted in this episode to welcome back Margaret Buj to the podcast. Margaret is both a recruiter - she recruits for some very large companies - and she's also an interview coach. And if you go back to Episode 21 you'll see there that Margaret had some absolutely fantastic tips on job applications, interviews - absolutely well worth going back to that episode and having a listen. And in that episode, Margaret tells us a little bit more about her. And I asked Margaret to come back on to the show, because she's got this dual role of acting both as a recruiter and interview coach to get an understanding from her as to what she's seeing in the job market and the recruitment market. Margaret, welcome back to the podcast.

Margaret Buj 1:29
Thank you so much for having me, Jeremy.

Jeremy Cline 1:32
For a bit of context, because this is a very, very fast-moving situation, we're recording this on Saturday, the 21st of March - so big thank you for giving up part of your weekend for this. And perhaps also for a bit of context, can you just remind us what sort of companies it is that you recruit for?

Margaret Buj 1:49
Yes, absolutely. I have almost 15 years of very international recruitment experience. And during this time, I've recruited both for global corporations in the technology and ecommerce space, such as Microsoft, Cisco Systems, Expedia Group. I have also recruited for smaller startups, for example, udify and mid-size companies like for example, King - Candy Crush. And I'm currently at an IT consulting firm, Avalant, which is a joint venture between Accenture and Microsoft. I've recruited very talented people all across the different levels across all different functions and also across different geographies.

Jeremy Cline 2:25
Starting off, what are you seeing out there? What's the general sort of atmosphere as far as recruitment goes at the moment?

Margaret Buj 2:31
Yes - really an unprecedented time, and it's completely normal to feel anxious and unsettled about the prospects of the job market in the coming weeks. Nobody knows with a hundred percent certainty what's going to happen, however, I wanted to share with you what I'm seeing from my perspective as a recruiter and interview coach. So actually, let me start with positives if that's okay, because there isn't that much that's positive right now, but let me start with positives. So one of the positives - I've been seeing more employees show flexibility when it comes to the hiring process and how they allow employees to work. Why? This is a difficult time for everyone. I think it's going to push employers in the right direction in the long term to be flexible to offer remote work options for those who want it or need it. I think that this whole coronavirus situation will bring about the changes that employers have traditionally been quite slow to adopt. I am quite lucky that I work for a company that has practiced working remotely for a long time, but I know that's not the case for a lot of my friends and colleagues and clients. You know, I am personally quite excited to see the rise of remote work. I think we've all made fun of that meeting that could have been an email. But now employers are faced with the reality of a fully remote workforce so that we can change the way we work forever. And also now that we have shed commute times and possibly because we crave more interaction with others, I've seen an increase in engagement on social media chats and people's willingness to help on phone calls. So making it a great time for some informational interviews. And also I think right now it's one of the best times to invest in yourself - learn new skills, take courses, start projects, work on some side hustle if that's what you wanted to do - and most importantly network, you know, keep positive and keep your head up. But in terms of are there companies still hiring and will they continue to hire - from what I'm seeing, companies are still hiring. Is everyone hiring? No, of course not. I know some companies are making people redundant. Some companies have put hiring on hold, and my friend is a recruiter at another technology company - they've put all the hiring on hold. Just before our call today, I spoke to another friend - she's just received an offer, she's meant to be starting - it's a contract - she's meant to start in two to three weeks. She's got a couple of friends who are in final interview stages with companies. Hiring doesn't stop, but hiring is getting different. Interviews are moving to video or a phone, on-site interviews are moving to video interviews. But companies still have goals, and while some of them are putting hiring on hold, a lot of them are still hiring. There are lots of companies still posting jobs. You know, the job market really isn't dead. I mean, of course, the companies will be impacted and suffer but nobody knows to which extent yet. And also not every occupation and industry will be affected in the same way. So companies in trouble - food services, hospitality and event planning, have been especially hard hit. However, you know, many industries and companies are still growing and hiring. For example, if a company or a product is focused on remote work, like we use Microsoft Teams or Zoom - we're using it right now - Slack or Trello, I think these companies will do well. I think online learning companies potentially will do well, because millions of students are out of school and millions of adults will be learning new skills as well. And maybe food delivery service and digital entertainment and video games - I think these could be this could be popular with the social distancing that we experienced. So I don't think hiring will stop. I think just there's so much uncertainty right now that maybe for the next week or two, it's going to be quiet but I don't think it's going to stop completely.

Jeremy Cline 5:57
You mentioned that you've spoken to people who've had offers and who are going through the hiring process. Have you've seen anyone who's had start dates pushed back or maybe even offers withdrawn, because that's certainly something that I've seen people getting a bit concerned about. In fact, I saw a message from one person who said they'd handed in their notice at their old place having accepted the offer at the new place, and then the new place having withdrawn the offer. I don't even know whet her that's legal to be honest.

Margaret Buj 6:27
I haven't seen offers being withdrawn yet. That's not to say doesn't happen. This is all very new. I can see the start dates being pushed. So for example, a friend of mine, she's accepted a job in Amsterdam to start in the third week of April, and now I think it's gonna be postponed. She was going to be relocated. So now I don't know exactly when it's going to happen. The thing is, there are a lot of unknowns right now and hiring someone is definitely an investment so I think hiring will take longer and offers might be postponed or start dates might be postponed. Very stressful, especially if you're not working, don't Working but don't lose confidence. This has nothing to do with you. If you're in the interview process. Now, I would say make sure you follow up once a week or so. And just don't take it personally, if you're not hearing back immediately because your recruiter is probably waiting for information from someone else. I think that's definitely going to happen, that start dates will keep getting pushed. I think it just also depends how long is it going to last? No one knows. Boris Johnson yesterday said I think it might be even in 12 weeks, which would be great. But then I've seen another article that it might take a year! No, let's hope not, because that sounds extremely depressing. But I think that's definitely happened. So I think you know, just what we can expect over the next few weeks. Yes, you will have to, I think exercise extreme patience, because things are going to take longer. And I think that you will see companies moving to video interviews, so things will definitely take longer. And also I think flexibility might be rewarded. In a way, hiring someone on a permanent basis is obviously a big investment, so the more flexible and possibly non-permanent you can make your situation I think the better. Be the candidate who understands the concerns, you know, maybe you can offer your services on a temporary or contract basis. Maybe you can offer a 90 day trial period. I don't know, I think these are such strange times, I wouldn't stop looking for a job right now. I would still line up interviews, keep networking, contacting hiring managers to give yourself the best chance of finding a new job. But this is unfortunately a very tough time for everyone. And I also think competition is going to increase drastically because more companies are letting people go. So I think that the job strategy might need to be changed a little bit as well.

Jeremy Cline 8:32
Someone who's maybe in the position, they're in a job and they've been contemplating a change. They've been thinking about looking around maybe making applications elsewhere. Is that still something worth doing? Or is it better to sit tight for the time being?

Margaret Buj 8:46
I think it just depends on an individual situation because if you are right now in a stable job that you maybe don't love, but you don't mind might be a good idea to stay where you are. But if you are in a job that's in a kind of toxic environment, why wait? You just don't know. I mean, I wouldn't stop looking for a job. Of course, you know, I think it change of any job - it's a risk, right? You never know it's going to work out. But if you're really unhappy, I wouldn't stay in a job that you absolutely hate just because it's stable. So honestly, I think that the hiring will pick up. Right now it's only about the second week in the UK of this whole situation when it got a little bit more serious. But companies can't put hiring off forever, they really can't. I just think it's gonna be moving to more of a remote workforce that they can't put hiring off forever, in my opinion.

Jeremy Cline 9:32
I guess there's the old kind of received wisdom that it's better to be in a job to move from a job to a job rather than sort of just quit and hope - and I think that's probably even more the case now, isn't it? You really don't want to just quit?

Margaret Buj 9:44
Absolutely. You know, I think it's always better to be employed when you're looking for work. I completely appreciate that not everyone might have that choice. But if you are currently working - no harm, certainly, looking for a job. And you don't know - finding a job could take a long time. Of course it depends on your level of experience, on what you actually do, where are you based, but finding the right job can take a really long time, so I personally wouldn't stop just because we have this crisis going on because it's likely to take longer than you think anyway, so why not start now? Now I think at least you will feel that you're doing something if you are in a job that you don't enjoy. And honestly people are getting hired. Even yesterday on LinkedIn, I've seen a career coach mentioned that one of the clients just received an offer and he was so happy that he got a job offer in coronavirus time. My friend received an offer last week. So hiring is still happening, but there will be a slowdown I believe.

Jeremy Cline 10:34
And I guess in some ways, the new environment might actually help people who are looking because I know one of the concerns that people raise when they are in a job and are looking elsewhere is how you find the time to do interviews and that sort of thing. And I guess if 1) people are doing more working from home and 2) there's more of an emphasis on video interviews rather than in person interviews, then it's going to be a little bit easier to sort of manage that kind of time and flexibility rather than worrying about having to take time off.

Margaret Buj 11:03
Yeah, absolutely. And also think of how much time a lot of people spend commuting to work. So you suddenly have maybe at least a couple of hours back into each day. So I think in terms of how you can maybe change the job strategy, what I would normally advise - messaging people and basically try to find contacts in companies that interest you - I'm not necessarily sure I would right now email people that you've never had contact with before, because people might be at home stuck with the kids, you know, worried about their jobs - their lives have been overturned, so you just don't know what someone's situation is right now. But at the same time, I think be ready to offer solutions. This is a challenging time for employers as well as workers. So if you can show the hiring manager that you've got what it takes to help the company succeed, you will increase your chances of getting hired. And also if you have experience of telecommuting or working remotely I think that's something to maybe mention as well, because not everyone has that experience. The way to get hired is always to show prospective employers that you have the skills they need. So it's just really important that you are able to decode the job listing and emphasise your most valuable qualifications in your cover letter, in the proper section of your CV and in job interviews. And if you can do your job from home, you might have a better chance than ever of getting hiring managers attention, because many businesses and professional services companies, especially in the tech space - and that's my space - are having their employees work from home. I would say keep applying. The market still has opportunities, and the people who land them are going to be the ones that are intentional and persistent with their search and very important - leverage LinkedIn. So this platform is an amazing resource right now. We recruiters of course are using it to find candidates for our positions. Relationship building is moving online. So start getting active, comment on posts and engage with people and share things that you like because that's also going to help your profile come up higher in search results. So I personally wouldn't stop looking for work. But I think what's important right now is that you really know how to prepare for video interviews because most of them will be will be done via video right now.

Jeremy Cline 13:05
Yes and I wanted to ask you about that, because you mentioned that there's going to be much more emphasis on video interviews. So perhaps you can talk a bit about what difference it makes doing video interviews compared with in-person, and how people should approach them best to succeed?

Margaret Buj 13:20
Yeah, absolutely. In terms of the preparation your preparation would actually be the same whether it's a face to face interview or a video interview. So you will want to make sure that you have fully researched the company, that you know who your interviewer is, that you have prepared your answers to all of the common interview questions that have enough answers to all the behavioural interview questions using either the STAR format - that's the situation task action result - or CAR, which is context action result. It's very important that you have enough specific examples, tangible things, of how you've added value, how you impacted in your previous position. But in terms of the actual video interview, firstly, I would say test your audio and camera before, because the last thing you want when you have a half an hour video interview is to have some technical problems at the start of the interview. Make sure that you test audio and camera before. I would join the call a few minutes early just to look at yourself and see that there's nothing distracting in the background. If you are using your laptop, I would maybe elevate it a little bit to avoid staring down into the camera. You would want to dress professionally. I don't think you necessarily need to wear a suit of course if you're at home, but you want to dress professionally. I have heard stories of people doing the Skype interview on the sofa and wearing their jogging bottoms - not very professional! You would want to dress professionally. Position yourself at a table against a plain neutral background. Just make sure there's no laundry in the background or anything distracting like that. Check all the lighting in the room. So many times when I start my coaching session either via Zoom or Skype and the person is sitting opposite the light so I can see them, their face is black and I say you need to move because I can barely see you. You don't want that situation during a video interview. You want to check the lighting in the room first, and ideally you want to be facing the light of course. If it's dark, again, check the lighting. Make sure that aren't in the shading from the lamp, if it's already quite late. So the lighting will be very important. Close all other applications on your laptop just to make sure that you don't have any pings or notifications coming from other applications. I would silence your mobile phone as well and disable vibration because that could be quite distracting. Plus have a copy of your CV in front of you. And I think you know, the good thing about the interview is that you can have maybe some post it notes around your laptop screen with some prompts, or some questions that you wish to ask the interviewer so of course you want to be prepared. Of course you want to have some good questions to ask the interviewer and you have some prompts - some little post it notes on your laptop - that's definitely the benefit of a video interview as opposed to a face to face interview. Of course you want to have pen and paper and have the phone number of the interviewer as well in case the video connection is lost, because again - often the interviews are just half an hour, forty five minutes. So you don't want to waste the first 15 minutes due to different technical technical problems. Try to build some rapport, if you can. I know it's easier - I think that's the main difference - it's easier to build rapport during a face to face interview, but try to do it a little bit in the video interview as well. Oh, another thing I almost forgot - make sure that you look at the camera most of the time. Don't look at the screen - that's where you see the face of the interviewer. But actually, make sure that you keep an eye contact. So that means looking at the camera on your laptop most of the time, not at the screen, so it just seems like you're keeping eye contact. And smile a little bit - I think it always helps, if you have really open positive body language. So keeping that eye contact, looking at the camera, make sure you're smiling a little bit - all of that should help you make a really good impression.

Jeremy Cline 16:44
Are companies do you think going to be making offers solely on the basis of video interviews, or do you think they will want to meet people in person?

Margaret Buj 16:52
I don't know. I have absolutely no idea. I'm really curious myself because typically when I've recruited for companies in the past, we would have many video interviews but then would always want to see this person face to face. Right now, I mean it's not really likely, or advisable right? So honestly, I have no idea. I think it's gonna really be very individual. Just depends on the company, depends on the individual. I think some companies might have to do that. Yes, I do think they might have to make an offer without meeting the person face to face, because they might just not have any choice.

Jeremy Cline 17:23
Are there any other things that people can do - so potential candidates - in terms of getting a feel for the workplace, because obviously, these things are always two ways, and we talked about that a fair bit in the last interview. And I guess one of the things if you don't get a chance to visit the office or the workspace, then you don't get such a vibe about what it's like to work there. So you can probably never compensate for that entirely. But are there any things which you'd recommend that people do just to try and make up for the fact that they might not necessarily see where they're working beforehand?

Margaret Buj 17:56
Absolutely. I think there are quite a lot of things you can do. So firstly, just typically, you can at least Google - in Google images or Google Maps, you can actually see what the office looks like in terms of you know, the location and the building and sometimes you can see the what the office looks like inside. So you can try to just Google that and see what it looks like. I would definitely look at the employers, all the social media profiles, because very often, they will have pictures of their office, pictures of different events that they maybe held before coronavirus! So I would look at different social media, especially Facebook or Instagram if the company has a page there - because very often there will be a lot of pictures there from different initiatives, from different events, from employee gatherings in the office, so at least you can get an idea of the kind of culture that they have. So yes, definitely social media. I would look at websites like Glassdoor just to really look at what do current employees say about working for that specific company. I always look at Glassdoor before interviewing anyway, because I want to see what's good and what are the potential concerns. You might also want to prepare some questions based on potential negatives that you've seen on Glassdoor, because no company will get just positive reviews, that's completely impossible. There will always be someone who didn't enjoy the job, didn't enjoy the company. Or maybe he or she are just disgruntled about something. So I would definitely research Glassdoor. I would look at all the reviews, and if you see anything that concerns you, I would ask and just see how the interviewer can alleviate your concerns - or not right? Maybe not. Just see the red flags. I would also ask your interviewers, not just one interviewer - typically you will have more than one interviewer - so ask them - What's the company culture like? What are the company values like? What do you enjoy about working here? The more questions you can ask the better.

Jeremy Cline 19:41
The impression I get, at least certainly the fears I've seen, is going to be kind of a recruiters market rather than a candidates market. Do you think there's any way that this situation could actually work in favour of candidates and that there are ways that candidates can leverage the situation to put themselves in a better position?

Margaret Buj 19:59
To be honest, I don't know. Because I think it depends on what you do, and the industry. I think of course if you can do your job from home. Frankly my job could be easily done from home, recruitment and coaching could very easily be done from home. A lot of the technical jobs - if you are a developer, you know, you can do this job just from your laptop. So I think in general, where the candidates have an advantage is when the job could be done from home. If they have experience of working from home from previous positions and if the job can actually be done from home I think that could definitely be an advantage. And of course if you are working in some of these industries that are needing people right now, whether it's healthcare - I've heard Amazon is hiring a hundred thousand more people to cope with the to cope with the demand. So I think just depends on what you do. Some people will be at massive advantage, some people unfortunately it will be a massive disadvantage, because if it's a job like imagine you're working in retail right now and all the shops are closed? There will be no jobs whatsoever for the time being.

Jeremy Cline 20:58
That loops us quite nicely back to something you said at the start of this interview about it being a good time to invest in yourself. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit more and perhaps give a few examples as to what people can be doing to invest in themselves and give themselves a better chance in particular, if they are - if they have historically worked in industries which at the moment in the current situation are suffering a bit?

Margaret Buj 21:21
Yeah. So again, it depends on what your specific goals are. But this is definitely a good time to make sure that your CV or resume is really top notch right now. A lot of CVs that I see are very duty-oriented, so the person will have listed their responsibilities, but I have absolutely no idea how good they are based on what they put on their CV. So you would want to make sure that you have a really strong CV with some tangible accomplishments. And that's, I think, especially important if you might be moving to a different industry, because you need to prove some track record of success. So making sure that you have a strong CV with a strong summary and skills section and some specific quantifiable achievements that prove to the employer that you have the skills that they are looking for. So CV would be one. I would definitely look at your LinkedIn profile as well. And again, depends on the job, of course, but if you work in a corporate environment I think a lot of the networking is moving to LinkedIn right now. So again, make sure that you have a really strong LinkedIn profile, strong summary section, strong headline, that you build your connections, that you take part in discussions and that you are visible on LinkedIn as well, because recruiters now - including myself - for all of my searches, right now I am really using LinkedIn. I'm absolutely using LinkedIn to find candidates, because as a recruiter, we can just put in specific keywords, in the advanced search box, and can find the exact candidates that we are looking to hire. So I think the CV and LinkedIn will be important. I mean, practising your interview skills is always a good idea in case you get an interview at a short notice. But also what else interests you, because there are so many different courses that you can do, and even actually a friend posted yesterday on Instagram, maybe that's maybe less work related, but you can learn something new. Many of the best museums in the world are offering free virtual tours of their insides and even exhibitions. I think that's amazing. Actually, that's something that will help your to learn something new, learn more about art - it just depends on what is it that you actually want to accomplish. So I think it's good to have a career plan. I mean, I know it's hard to have a plan in the current situation - no one knows exactly what's going to happen, and how long this will last, but I think it helps to have a plan. And if you are looking for work right now, make sure that you maybe reach out to a certain amount of people every month, every weekend. That you apply for a certain amount of jobs each week and that you tailor your application to every single position. So I think there's quite a lot you can do, especially when you're saving all that time. And you know, you don't have your boss hanging out behind you. So you can actually do that stuff. You can have a call during the day potentially. It's pretty good for networking as well.

Jeremy Cline 23:43
Are courses on the online course sites worth looking into? Things like Udemy, Coursera, LinkedIn learning that sort of thing?

Margaret Buj 23:50
Hundred percent. It depends on what what you want to learn, but I had a look at some of these courses and - depends on the course right - but I think some of them are extremely good.

Jeremy Cline 23:58
So you just cut out that is extremely inexpensive.

Margaret Buj 24:01
I think some of them are very, very good and not very expensive. So pretty good idea to look. And I think I'm gonna be offering good themes as well right now,

Jeremy Cline 24:09
and just submitted to catch me going back to LinkedIn. I feel an episode dedicated to LinkedIn coming on from what you said. And certainly I get the impression that it's being used as a platform much more for hiring. And one aspect of it, I just wondered how important it is in the hiring process is the testimonials to where you get someone who says, you know, they read this person for whatever it is, is that something that is an absolute must in a LinkedIn profile? Because I'm sure there's an awful lot of people who don't get that either because of the industry they work for or what

Margaret Buj 24:43
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it helps I think if you have so the two different things on LinkedIn that testimonial, there are the recommendations, which I think what you mean by testimonials, then there are the endorsements. I have to say I'm not a huge fan of endorsements because people can just endorse you Anything and I've had situations, I've actually switched that function myself, because basically, I was getting loads of people and those people I've never even worked before. And they're like, Oh, can you now please send those to me? I'm like, No, no, you of course I'm not gonna go to that endorsement will be absolutely worthless. But I think a recommendation from people who have worked with you, I think it's very valuable, you know, if you if you see a proper has 3040 recommendations, I'm talking about proper recommendations when someone say I've worked with Jeremy on this project, and he did x y Zed. So it's specific, I think it could be extremely useful. But you know, if he just says, Oh, yeah, Jeremy is great. But that is nothing. You know, anyone can say that. So if you have a specific, quite a thoughtful recommendation, I would definitely recommend it. And I think that's also could be a good time. I've tried to get some recommendations. If you haven't bothered doing that earlier, why not do it now. And to make it easier, I would actually maybe email the person first because there's a function on LinkedIn where you can ask someone for recommendation, but you know, not everyone checks the LinkedIn regularly. I do my job and not everyone does. It. If there are any previous bosses or colleagues that you'd like to recommend you, I would just send them an email. And I would just say, I'm currently building my LinkedIn profile, maybe about outlook for your job, would you be able to write a recommendation for the work we've done in our XYZ company? And you might be able to tell them, like, just remind them what kind of things you would like them to recommend you for? So again, that's a good time now to give the recommendations.

Jeremy Cline 26:21
Are there any points that you'd like to cover about what's going on with the current situation that we haven't covered? Any other sort of final words of advice or encouragement that you'd like to mention?

Margaret Buj 26:31
No, to be honest, I think we've covered everything based on the current knowledge. Who knows what's going to happen in a week or two, but honestly, no one knows what's going to happen. I would just say don't get too discouraged. I know it's stressful for everyone, but the market still has opportunities right now. So hiring will never stop completely. It might be slower. It might take a longer time and yes, in some industries, there might be a hiring freeze, but some of the industries are hiring right now. Don't let that put you off because companies still have goals. They will still want to hire people.

Jeremy Cline 27:02
Margaret, thank you so much. I have to say when we started this interview, I didn't really know how it was going to go. So whether you were going to sort of come on and say, you know, it's a complete car crash out there and no one's hiring, and it's a terrible situation. But this has been so positive, so many great takeaways. I think people are going to take a lot of solace, and there's some great advice here. So Margaret, thank you so much.

Margaret Buj 27:26
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure. And let's hope that we can have maybe another call that will be a lot more positive. Let's just hope it doesn't last too long, because we're all in this together - it's really affecting everyone.

Jeremy Cline 27:38
Absolutely, absolutely. Well I will include some show notes for this episode. I'm not quite sure where they're going to be, but certainly if people have a look at the Change Work Life website, changeworklife.com, and under the podcast section, then there will be some show notes for this. And yeah, I guess the message is everyone, be safe, be well, follow government advice on social distancing, and that sort of thing - and best of luck!