Episode 120: Feeling like a fraud? How to deal with imposter syndrome – with Charlotte Crabtree of Reflex Coaching

Episode 120: Feeling like a fraud? How to deal with imposter syndrome - with Charlotte Crabtree of Reflex Coaching

Jeremy Cline 0:00
You're not good enough. You don't deserve to be here. Why on earth would anyone listen to what you've got to say? If you've ever had these thoughts about where you work and your place in it, then this is the episode for you. I'm Jeremy Cline and this is Change Work Life.

Jeremy Cline 0:31
Hello, and welcome to Change Work Life, the podcast is all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. Do you ever worry that you're going to be found out at work, that someday, a colleague is going to turn to you and say, 'You're not really cut out for this, are you?' If you sometimes feel that you're not good enough to do the work you do, then this is the episode for you. We're going to be discussing imposter syndrome, and I'm delighted to be joined this week by Charlotte Crabtree. Charlotte is a certified life coach who works with organisations to develop and support engaged, motivated and high-performing teams, helping people at all levels develop their self-awareness and confidence. Charlotte, welcome to the show.

Charlotte Crabtree 1:11
Thank you so much for having me.

Jeremy Cline 1:13
Let's start with horses. So, you're a certified Equine Facilitated Learning practitioner. Where on earth do horses come into the sort of coaching you do?

Charlotte Crabtree 1:25
So, horses are amazing creatures. I have been around horses and riding all my life, since I was about five years old. And it was only really recently that I discovered EFL, Equine Facilitated Learning, as a modality.

Jeremy Cline 1:45
As a modality?

Charlotte Crabtree 1:47
Oh, sorry, as in a form of coaching, a form of personal development work. So, I have always used horses as a way to escape, as a way of calming down and recharging after like a stressful day at work, or even setting myself up for the day. So, going to the yard in the morning and doing the chores and just being around the horse, and really feeling like I have some time for myself before I go into the chaos of the day. And likewise, if things have been really stressful, then I would go home and stop at the yard on the way back, and just give the horse a hug and sniff his neck and just be around that kind of energy in that environment. And I never really put two and two together in terms of actually how good that is for your wellbeing. I just thought that was something that I do, that was my passion, my hobby. And so, more recently, I've been coaching for a while now, and I really wanted to bring in more of me into what I'm doing, more fun, more energy, more kind of light-heartedness and more outdoors. I've spent the past 18 months, like most of us have, on Zoom, and I have just been craving getting outside and getting back to nature. So, I recently trained in Equine Facilitated Learning, and it's an incredible experience, really. So, it can be used for all sorts of things. There's a lot of work in things like equine therapy, it's used a lot for people with anxiety, with PTSD or that kind of thing. But it's brilliant for developing confidence, developing leadership skills, and it's a really great team building activity, as well.

Jeremy Cline 3:41
Fascinating. Well, that's really interesting. I had not thought of using horses in that way. But that's really interesting. And just before we dive into the main topic, what's your background, what's, briefly, your journey to coaching?

Charlotte Crabtree 3:58
So, my career background is in the medical communications industry. So, I started out, fresh out of uni, in a project executive role. And by the time I left to go full time with my own business, nearly sort of 10 years later, I was managing global operations for a multimillion-pound event agency. So, in that time, I've kind of climbed the ladder as it were, and built up a team underneath me. And I was actually training for my coaching certification as something to help me in that role, in the back end of 2019, as we came into the pandemic. So, when it hits us, I kind of decided it was a bit of a now or never opportunity to go for it and take it full time. So, I spent the first year or so working with people on a one-to-one basis, focusing a lot on building self-belief and confidence to empower people to take the action they needed to fulfil their potential in their careers. But I feel really strongly about making a difference in the culture of corporate life in general. I think there's a lot of work to do in this space, and we spend so much time at work, and when we're not there, we're thinking about it. It's an experience that has such a huge impact on our lives. And I really think it's time to start normalising having a successful career as part of a full and thriving lifestyle, rather than something we have to choose at the sacrifice of personal goals.

Jeremy Cline 5:27
Regular listeners to this show will know this is chiming with me absolutely beautifully, I absolutely love what you're doing, I would completely buy in that. So, the topic at hand, imposter syndrome, can you start by defining it for us?

Charlotte Crabtree 5:45
Yeah. I mean, I can give you my own definition. I think imposter syndrome can be a bit of a buzzword, and it gets thrown around a lot, and people will kind of tack on to and say, 'I think that sounds like me, but I don't really know what it means.' So, I think it's important to have a conversation about what it actually is. So, that's a great question. Imposter syndrome is not a condition, it's not something that we are diagnosed with, it's not something that you have, and you can't get rid of, or it needs treating or fixing. Imposter syndrome is something that we experience. It's something that we feel. And it comes from a combination of the environment that we're in, and how safe we feel, and how much we feel a part of the team, and how much we're involved in kind of important decisions and things like that. And it also comes from our own sense of self-worth, self-belief, self-confidence. So, if you're experiencing imposter syndrome, you might feel like you don't deserve the opportunity that you have, you don't deserve to be in this position. One day somebody is going to turn around, like you said in the introduction to the podcast, and say, 'You're not quite cut out for this, are you?', or, 'How did you even get here? What are you doing? Who are you to contribute your ideas? Who are you to change what's happening? Who are you to tell me what I should be doing?' And it affects so many of us, because, as we step into the working world, there is a lot of ego, and there is a lot of competition. And for a lot of people, especially in environments that can feel quite toxic, or working under leaders who you might describe as toxic, there aren't people that are building you up, there aren't people that are supporting you, telling you that you're doing a great job, encouraging you to put yourself out there. And so, there's a lot more focus on the negatives, rather than the positives. And as individuals, we all tend to have a negative brain bias as well, which means that, for every 10 things that you do, nine of them could go really well, but you'll only remember the one that didn't. And it's a combination of all of these factors, so your mindset, your confidence, what people are saying to you, the environment that you're working in, the experiences that you have every day, that builds into this narrative that tells you that you are not good enough to be where you are, you don't deserve to be there, and somebody else is going to call you out or take you out ,and you're going to lose it all. And that kind of sense, that feeling is what we call imposter syndrome.

Jeremy Cline 8:42
And what effect does it have? I mean, I guess it can affect you both at work, and indeed, at home. So, can you talk about, if you have these feelings, how do they manifest themselves? You know, what happens to you? What do you do or not do, as a result?

Charlotte Crabtree 8:59
Yeah, it definitely affects you both at work and at home. I think that's really important to recognise. I would imagine that it probably affects women more in the workplace and men more at home, just because of the kind of cultural, societal norms that we live under. So, at work, it might show up as not wanting to contribute your ideas in a meeting. It might be not wanting to blow the whistle on something. It might be not being able to set boundaries and say, 'I need to leave at five o'clock today, because I've done my work, and now I need to do my home life.' Because you feel like somebody is going to say, 'Well, you don't deserve, you don't deserve a pay rise, you don't deserve a promotion, you don't deserve these opportunities, if you're not putting in every hour God sends.' And at home, it might show up as things like not wanting to help with the housework in case you do it differently than your partner does, and you don't do it well enough, or it might be not volunteering to take the kids out, because they prefer to play with their mom, if you're the man or, you know, the other way around. It can really show up in any situations that you think you might like to do something, or you could probably do something, or it might be worth trying something, and you don't, it's the kind of main framework that imposter syndrome lifts, I would say.

Jeremy Cline 10:34
Is it something that ever goes away? Or is it just something that has to be continually managed?

Charlotte Crabtree 10:41
I believe that mindset work is an ongoing journey. It's a practice, in the same way that you keep fit and healthy physically, you need to keep fit and healthy mentally. So, in that regard, it needs to be managed. But in the same way that, if you do a couch to 5k, to be able to run a long distance or feel that you can go for a run easily, when you get to that 5k, 5k becomes quite easy and natural and part of your routine and your habit and almost enjoyable, or definitely enjoyable for lots of people, not me. But in the same way, mindset work, the kind of bulk of personal development is upfront, where you start digging into finding out what these feelings are, discovering that you have imposter syndrome, digging into why you feel that in the first place, what experiences have you had that have built that up. But once you start tackling it, once you kind of shift your beliefs from 'I'm not good enough' to 'I am good enough', then it's much more of a maintenance aspect. And, you know, daily regular practices, your thought patterns shift from automatically negative to automatically positive. So, something might happen that might trigger you or make you think, 'Oh, goodness, do I not deserve to be here?' And instead of your kind of in a mean girl saying, 'Yeah, they're right, you don't deserve to be here', your inner cheerleader comes out and says, 'No, no, don't worry about that, that's their problem, you're good, keep going, you've got this.' And it's that kind of shift that really kind of keeps you buoyant and keeps you building your confidence, so that you can keep moving forward and achieving what you want to in your life and career.

Jeremy Cline 12:38
You mentioned, when starting out with this work, there's kind of two things, I think. One is recognising that there is this thing called imposter syndrome at work. And then, you mentioned about going back and trying to figure out what has given rise to these feelings, whether it's something in personal history or whatever. That second aspect, it's interesting, and I wonder where the limit is between delving into your childhood, your early adult, to see what is going on there, and driving yourself crazy trying to figure something out, trying to look for something in your history. How much benefit is there in looking back at this stuff, rather than just kind of going, 'Okay, yeah, this is a thing, so here are some mindset practices to try and deal with it'?

Charlotte Crabtree 13:38
There is a phenomenal benefit to delving into your kind of childhood experiences and really understanding what makes you tick, and why you are the way that you are. One of the main reasons really is for consistency and to be able to keep going. So, you can use affirmations daily, you could start today and say, 'I am good enough, I am worthy, I deserve to be here, I deserve success.' And it will work to a point, but if you don't really believe it, or you're not even transforming the way that you feel about yourself underneath, it will become a chore or less effective or limited in how much of a difference it can make. So, I would wholeheartedly say, start doing affirmations today, start realising and talking to yourself more kindly, in a more positive way, it all helps. But digging into what has happened for you, what is going on for you, is the best way to make it easier and more sustainable moving forward, so you can make a bigger transformation in the way that you feel about yourself, in the way that you approach things at work, and the things that you can achieve in life. And you get to where you want to be a lot quicker, because you're doing the kind of root work, which makes everything a lot easier.

Jeremy Cline 15:11
Can you give an example, maybe of a client you've worked with, who had issues with imposter syndrome, and what this kind of looking back uncovered and how it helped?

Charlotte Crabtree 15:21
Yes. So, I had a client who was very successful in her career. She was account director level in her organisation. But she really struggled with setting boundaries, as I mentioned, she really struggled with contributing her ideas. And as a result, she wasn't getting the recognition that she wanted, she didn't have the kind of authority and influence to make the changes that she wanted, because she wasn't kind of standing behind her ideas and what she believed in. And when we did the work together, we actually went all the way back to a primary school memory where she was, not severely, but bullied by other girls in her class. And so, what we did was an exercise to go back to the earliest memory that she had of these girls being mean to her, and looking at the situation kind of objectively, looking from an adult perspective at what was happening as a child, and actually stepping into her child self, and just freezing the frame and thinking about what she needed in that time. And the scenario was that, you know, these girls had, it was something like they had manipulated a situation and made her look bad. And then, they were saying mean things to her. And in that moment, what she really needed was a hug. As simple as that. She needed somebody there to give her a hug and tell her, 'It's okay, it's not your fault. You're all right. You can carry on, you are loved.' And being able to recognise and almost go back and give herself that hug in that moment, give herself that love, she then was able to carry that through to all of these other experiences that she's had, where she's felt the same way that she did in that moment. And this is an NLP exercise, Neuro Linguistic Programming. So, we worked through this kind of timeline of these experiences, and almost gave herself a hug in all of those moments where she really needed one and there was nobody there to give it to her. And being able to do that empowers you in the now to take that forward into future scenarios. So, the next time she went into work and somebody made a comment, it's not always necessarily a comment that's meant to be mean or hurtful or disrespectful, but because of that trigger of experience that she had had, that's how things were taken. So, she would experience a comment like that, and first of all, be able to say to herself in that moment, 'This is not about you, you are loved, you are strong, you can go on', and also, as time goes on, just be less triggered by those comments, so by those things that are happening, by these experiences, almost like water off a duck's back, like she didn't notice them as much anymore. And so, her brain is collecting less evidence that she can't, or she shouldn't, or she doesn't deserve, which means that, knowing what she can do, she had the confidence to put herself out there and make that influence and make that difference in her workplace that she was trying to do.

Jeremy Cline 19:03
I think, as humans, we do have a tendency to personalise things. So, it can be something ridiculous, like you send an email asking for something, and why haven't they replied in half an hour's time? Well, they're probably busy, rather than it just being that they objected to what you were asking for in the email. But I think that that seems to be how the human brain can work. I guess it's that sort of thought process that you're trying to overcome here.

Charlotte Crabtree 19:28
Yeah, definitely. I think the psychology around kind of forming childhood memories is that, around the age of seven is when we start forming experiences and making them mean something about us. So, around that age is when everything that we experience, we think that means something about us, which creates the filter for how we see everything as we grow older. So, you know, like you say, someone might not reply to your email immediately. And for me, I might think, 'Okay, well, they're busy, they're doing this', or for you, you might think, 'Oh, they must hate me, or they must have really objected to what I've said.' And it's based, it's all because of this filter that we look through life at, because of these experiences that we've had, and what we've made that mean about us. It's very in our ego, rather than in our body. So, linking back to working with horses, that actually ties in really nicely, because when we are in our ego, we are overthinking, and we are worrying, and everything is about us. Whereas, if we want to, especially in our careers, if we want to succeed and actually make a difference, we need to leave our ego to one side and connect with the bigger picture, and what we're trying to achieve, and what is the greater good. And actually, by stepping into our bodies and feeling what we're feeling, and experiencing things in the here and now just like a horse does, is how we can see what we need to do and find the confidence to go out there and do it.

Jeremy Cline 21:19
So, as well as going back and looking for clues in early life experiences about what you're feeling and why you're feeling like this, you mentioned, once you found that practice, that you can introduce it. You mentioned affirmations and things like that. Can you talk a bit more about, once you've identified what was going on, what the practices might look like to help you overcome this?

Charlotte Crabtree 21:47
Yeah, so I work with clients with a range of different tools and activities. The kind of basics are daily meditation, doing journaling work. So, I will either give clients journal prompts to say things like, how I'm feeling today, what I want to achieve today, what I'm worried about today, or with journaling, really, it can be anything. So, a lot of clients, I'll give them journaling homework, and they'll say, 'Well, I'm not really sure if I'm doing it right.' And honestly, there is no right or wrong way to do journaling, it is completely private. It's like your own diary. You can draw a picture, you can write a list, you can do a spider diagram, you can write an essay, it's absolutely, it's more like producing a stream of consciousness, whatever's in your head, getting it out onto paper can be so therapeutic. And sometimes, you'll find clarity, and sometimes, you'll find an answer that you've been looking for. And sometimes, you don't, but you just feel calmer. So, meditation and journaling are fantastic tools, especially to do them kind of first thing in the morning, because in doing so, you are giving yourself permission to come first in your life, which is what we all should be, we should all come first in our own lives. And giving yourself even 20 minutes, half an hour, at the beginning of a day, you're telling yourself, 'I deserve to come first, I deserve this time.' And so, whatever you do within that time, you have started your day with the intention of 'I am worthy'. So, that's a really big one that I do with most of my clients. And then, other things will be, I do Emotional Freedom Technique, which is tapping. So, I do that with a lot of clients, and I will do it on calls, and then teach them how to do it for themselves afterwards.

Jeremy Cline 23:49
So, what's Emotional Freedom Technique and tapping?

Charlotte Crabtree 23:52
Yeah. So, basically, it's very similar to acupuncture in the way that it works. So, we use the meridian lines the ends of the meridian lines in the body, so from the head, down to the collarbone, essentially. And you work through a process of your thought patterns as they are now, and as you would like them to be. And so, we tap on the endpoints of the meridian lines, in the same way that acupuncture works, rather than puncturing the skin, we are just tapping on those points, and it releases the emotions that you're feeling. So, it can be quite an emotional exercise. But it generally just helps people to feel uplifted and free and calm afterwards, and can really help with kind of feeling more positive, more confident. It's a great thing to do if you are nervous about something, worried about something, and to really kind of give you a kickstart on shifting a belief as well.

Jeremy Cline 24:55
You mentioned, towards the beginning of our conversation, about how there are kind of two elements to imposter syndrome. So, there's the internal parts, which we've now talked about, but also the external part, so the environment, how safe you feel at work, the fact that there are often egos in the workplace, it's not necessarily the culture of the workplace that people congratulate you on a job well done, but they might tell you when you haven't done a job so well. People are going to have varying degrees of influence over workplace culture. Some people might have been at fortunate position where they are able to influence it, others are going to be in a position where they can't, or they don't feel they can influence it a lot. So, can you talk a bit about the interface between what you do with yourself and your place of work, and you know, whether working on yourself is always going to be sufficient to overcome negative culture of work, whether you should be looking to try and change the culture of work, if the culture of work really isn't fitting, then that's the sign of maybe not been the right culture and maybe needing to move on somewhere else, so where's the interface between sort of the personal responsibility in the work you do on yourself and your environment around you?

Charlotte Crabtree 26:26
Yeah, I am a big advocate for taking responsibility and accountability for yourself. I feel really strongly that, if you work on your own personal development, if you build your confidence, if you take responsibility for your behaviours and how you're showing up, that can have a huge impact on the people around you. If you are feeling confident, relaxed, positive, energised, motivated at work, it naturally has a ripple effect of the people around you. So, every individual person does influence the culture around them, whether that's, you know, you're at the bottom of the rung, and you make your teammates feel better, or you're in a leadership position, and you make things for the hierarchy essentially below you easier. Everybody does make a difference. In terms of knowing whether it's the right place for you to be or not, I get this question a lot, because I used to jump up, because I hadn't done the personal work, and I blamed everyone and everything else, and I blamed everything on the environment, and I thought the grass would be greener, and things would be easier, and I'd be recognised if I just was in a different company. And sometimes, that is the case. But you will never know until you know yourself. Until you feel confident in what you can do, until you shed the imposter syndrome and know that you're putting yourself out there and putting your best foot forward and doing your best work, until you can recognise the difference between you taking something personally and something being toxic or deliberately hurtful, you won't be able to make that call and know whether you're in the wrong place, or you could just be doing something a little bit differently. So, the way that we present ourselves to others is a huge impact in the response that we get back. And again, this is where the working with horses, the EFL, comes in perfectly, because when we behave a certain way, from our ego, we are thinking that we're doing everything right, and we thought about this, and we thought about that, and this is how it affects me, but we don't consider the filter that other people are looking at the world through, looking at us through, and how that might be received, or perceived, and then, the way that we get the response back also goes through our ego. So, by working on ourselves, stepping out of that ego mindset, and building our confidence and our self-worth, it really helps us to approach things much more objectively and be able to understand in a more objective way what the responses are that we're getting. From the environment perspective, I work with companies to help them build environments that are conducive to people performing their best, feeling their best, looking after themselves, and then, performing as well. So, yeah, there's a definite combination of people at the top and owners of companies and leaders making the effort to make it a safe environment for people to explore themselves, express themselves, look after themselves, and then, do a high-quality job essentially, as well as it being really important for people to take accountability for their own feelings, essentially, and their own behaviours.

Jeremy Cline 27:07
When you have done the work on yourself, how do you know that you're kind of there, in terms of being able to separate yourself and recognise that it's not you? So, how do you get to the place where you're confident that you have done sufficient work on yourself that you can make that judgement about whether it really is the external environment that's causing more of an issue?

Charlotte Crabtree 30:46
I would say, being "there", in quotes, is not really a thing. As I said earlier, it's definitely an ongoing journey for everybody. And we all get it wrong sometimes as well. There will be breakthroughs and lightbulb moments that you have on a journey where you realise things like, 'Oh, I don't have to do this anymore. Oh, I don't have to be validated by someone else's opinion. I don't have to work 80 hours a week to be worth his job.' And you'll have those realisations. But you won't live and breathe them every second of the day. I think it's different for everybody, and you notice the changes within yourself at your own pace. So, you'll notice something that's happened before happening again, and you'll realise that you're looking at it from a different perspective, or you're taking it a different way, or you're handling it differently. So, it would not be, for me, to tell anybody that moving job or staying in a job is the right or wrong thing for them, because we can only make our own decisions. And success should only be as we define it. And you know, our experiences should only be as we choose them. So, I think, I generally offer like a 12-week coaching programme for one-to-one clients, and that is usually enough for people to say, 'Right, I know what I'm doing, I'm armed with a load of tools to help me and support me moving forwards.' And they'll go on and carry on their journey, but they'll have different perspectives by the end of that time. And yeah, but it's really different for everybody. It's totally based on how you feel as an individual, and where you feel like you want to be, and how you notice the changes in yourself.

Jeremy Cline 32:56
If someone listening to this thinks, 'Okay, yeah, this is kind of resonating with me what Charlotte's saying', but they're just not sure, they're not sure whether coaching or whatever might be able to help them, what are some of the objections that you've seen from people, and what do you say to them to overcome those objections before working on themselves to overcome imposter syndrome?

Charlotte Crabtree 33:24
I don't really like to objection handle, as such. People tend to be exposed to kind of personal development and this kind of world at their own pace. So, they might read a book or hear a podcast or see something on Instagram, and that's really when the journey starts, that's when the spark ignites. And you know, some people will see one of my posts on Instagram and message me and say, 'I need to work with you.' And other people, I had somebody sign with me a couple of weeks ago, and they've been following me on Instagram for a year and downloaded my free resource and watched all of my videos and read all of my blogs and read books that I'd recommended and things like that. So, it's very different for everybody. I think it is one of those things when you know you know, when you feel ready, when you think, 'Actually, I do want to make a change, and I realise that I'm the one that needs to do something to make things different.' When you're ready to take that accountability for your own happiness, that's when people jump on the journey, I guess.

Jeremy Cline 34:39
You've very helpfully mentioned books or podcasts. Are there maybe one or two that you recommend people look at, if they're maybe not ready to start working with someone, but would like to find out a bit more about all this?

Charlotte Crabtree 34:52
Yeah, definitely. One of the biggest inspirations for me is Brené Brown. She's got a few books and a couple of podcasts, and a Netflix special at the moment, I think. But Brené is a shame and vulnerability researcher, which I think can sound quite scary, but she is all about embracing our imperfections and finding the courage to live a life that is fulfilling. And she talks about things from a personal perspective, and she talks about things from a sort of business and leadership perspective, as well. So, she has two different podcasts and more than two books that focus on those different things. But yeah, I would absolutely check out her Netflix special, at least as a starting point. She is a real inspiration and so positive and relatable, I'm a big fan. So, anything by Brené Brown would be a recommendation from me.

Jeremy Cline 35:56
Brilliant. I'll certainly put a link to that in the show notes. And where would you like people to go if they want to find out more about you?

Charlotte Crabtree 36:04
Yes, so you can find out more information about me and the services I offer, and Equine Facilitated Learning as a practice as well, at my website charlottecrabtree.com.

Jeremy Cline 36:13
Brilliant. I'll put a link to there in the show notes as well. Charlotte, thank you so much. You've given us an awful lot to consider. Thank you for coming on the podcast.

Charlotte Crabtree 36:22
Thank you for having me. It's been great.

Jeremy Cline 36:24
Okay, hope you enjoyed that interview with Charlotte Crabtree and the last episode of 2021. Imposter syndrome is definitely something which I've suffered with, and frankly, I think, continue to suffer with. I can certainly remember when I started my professional life as a new lawyer, looking around at all my colleagues and the environment, and thinking, 'What on earth am I doing here? All these people are so much more confident than me, they know what they're doing. I don't belong here.' And I really wish I'd had the benefit of talking to Charlotte before then. It's a theme that's come up so many times before, but there's only a limited amount we can do to control our external environment. Whereas there's a lot more you can do to work on your own internal self. And it's only really once you've done the work on your internal self, once you know yourself better, that you can start to look at the wider environment and think about what changes might be made to that. So, lots of tips, and I hope you found that useful. There's show notes with a full transcript of the interview, a summary of what we talked about, and links to the resources that Charlotte mentioned and her website, they're all at changeworklife.com/120, that's changeworklife.com/120. And I'll be amazed if there isn't someone you know who suffers from imposter syndrome and who'd benefit from hearing what Charlotte has to say. So, do please, please, share with them this episode. On the show notes page, you'll find links, so you can share the episode on social media; or just tell someone about them. Let them know you heard this great interview, you know that they have struggled with self-confidence and imposter syndrome, encourage them to listen to this episode, it might well help them.

Jeremy Cline 38:06
So, as I mentioned, this is the last episode of 2021. And I truly, truly hope that 2021 has been a better year for you than 2020 was. I've got some more great interviews in the pipeline for 2022, but I'm going to switch my publication schedule for a bit. So, rather than episodes coming out every week, they're going to be coming out every two weeks. And the reason for doing that is, whilst I absolutely love doing the podcast, there's one or two other things which I want to work on, which are just going to take more time than I've got at the moment. So, by changing to an episode every two weeks, rather than once a week, that'll allow me a bit more time to work on what I'm working on. And I expect, at some point, I will let you know on the podcast just what that is. In the meantime, if you're new to the show, do check out the back catalogue. There are some fantastic episodes in the last 120, in fact, most of the episodes in the last 120 are all great, but you will find some absolute gems there. So, do have a look back and check out the back catalogue. And if you're not already subscribed to the show, then make sure that you do subscribe. If you go to changeworklife.com/subscribe, then you will find links there to where you can get the show. There's some great episodes coming up in the new year, and I can't wait to see you then. Cheers, bye, and Happy New Year.