Episode 127: Does the job for life exist? – with Becca Ribbing

Episode 127: Does the job for life exist? - with Becca Ribbing

Jeremy Cline 0:00
Is it realistic to find the job for life? Should you be aiming to find that job where you might spend 20, 30, even 40 years of your working life, and be happy to spend that time in the same job? Or is it more likely, in fact, is it okay every few years to start looking around and seeing what else is out there, maybe changing job? That's what we're going to talk about in this week's episode. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work Life.

Jeremy Cline 0:43
Hello, and welcome to the Change Work Life podcast where we're all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. Say you changed jobs a few years ago, and at the time, it seemed like the perfect job, and you were really excited about it. And for those first few years, it was great, you loved it. But then, something inside you changes. You're still doing the same work with the same colleagues, but it just doesn't excite you in the same way that it used to. What's going on? What's changed? What might need to change? That's what we're talking about today with my guest this week, Becca Ribbing. Becca is the author of the clarity journal and a coach who is on a mission to help people break out of the cycles of uncertainty and struggle that hold them back. Becca, welcome to the show.

Becca Ribbing 1:29
Thank you so much for having me.

Jeremy Cline 1:31
So, before we dive into this topic, can you introduce yourself, and tell us what it was that put you into coaching in the first place?

Becca Ribbing 1:38
Yeah, so I've been a coach for quite a while. And when I got into it, I was in my early 20s, or not early 20s, but my mid-20s, and I was in that same space that a lot of us get into a couple years out of university. You're out in the real world, you thought you knew exactly what you wanted to do in college, or maybe you weren't really sure what you wanted to do in college, but you thought it would be easier to figure that out, and you've had your first job, your second job, and it's just not gelling right. Either you're underutilised, or you're just really in the wrong position. And I found myself in that. I think a lot of people in their 20s find themselves in that. And when I did, I really threw myself into it. I did all of this reading, I found my Myers Briggs type, like all of the things 15 years ago that you did when you weren't sure what you wanted to do. As I was doing that, I started helping all my friends, because all of my friends were in that same life position. And as I was helping them, I realised I wanted to be a coach, because it was so much fun to watch them transform from really being like not sure about their job or constantly complaining about their job, to actually enjoying it. Then, when we go out to dinner, it's more fun, because they're not just constantly complaining. And as I was doing that, I just was like, 'This is it, this is it, this is what I want to do.' And so, I did coaching school, and I've been doing it ever since.

Jeremy Cline 3:19
How did you come to be the person who was helping all your friends?

Becca Ribbing 3:22
I'm a good listener. I don't know what it is exactly about me, because it's not exactly that I'm a good listener, I like drawing stories out of people. I like to hear all of the little details, and I have a tendency to remember all of the details. So, I think that really helps in going from conversation to conversation to conversation and really making the connections between what people tell me.

Jeremy Cline 3:48
Do you have a typical client or particular problems that you find yourself helping people with?

Becca Ribbing 3:54
I usually work with people who are feeling stuck, and don't really know how to get what they want next. Most of them are trying to decide between two or three things, and they don't really feel confident about the direction that they want to take. I find that a lot of my clients, when they come to me, they don't even tell me about the two or three things. They tell me about the thing they think they should do, the thing that society is going to praise, or the thing that their mentors are telling them to do, the thing that their family thinks they should do. We'll start talking and within 45 minutes, they start opening up and telling me about these other ideas. And almost inevitably, what they really need is permission to follow the idea that they want to follow, and also, to make sure that it's totally rational, like well thought out. Because I think sometimes when we are making those leaps, we don't have the experience that we need. If we had the experience, it wouldn't feel so scary. So, figuring out how to make that leap as quickly and as economically viably as possible, I think is really important.

Jeremy Cline 5:11
So, turn to the situation that I mentioned at the start. You've got someone who, they've been at their dream job for, call it three years, and it really was their dream job when they started, they were really excited about it. And it really was a great move. But then, three or four years on, nothing has fundamentally changed, except their internal feeling, the feeling of satisfaction or dissatisfaction with the job. What would you say is going on?

Becca Ribbing 5:44
I am a really big believer that there are a huge group of people that like challenge, that thrive on challenge, that thrive on that creativeness that goes along with starting a new job. And I think that most of those people are the ones that listen to this type of podcasts. I mean, there are certainly people out there that really could stay in one job for 30 years and be fine. None of them are probably listening to me talk right now. So, if you really thrive being creatively utilised, utilising your own skills, using your passions at work, then what works for you today isn't going to work for you in three years. And what worked for you in three years isn't necessarily going to work for you today, because it's no longer interesting. You've mastered it, there's no challenge to it. And I think that a lot of us need to continuously grow. And if we're not growing our skills, then we just start getting burned out, we just start getting annoyed. I think a lot of times what I see is, someone starts hitting that about 24 months after they've gotten their dream job. And so, they recognise it at a certain level, because they start talking to people internally about what might be the next job, they start talking to their boss, their boss may make promises. And as those promises don't materialise quickly enough, the person gets more and more annoyed and frustrated, because they know they need something else. And a lot of times, they're just waiting to see what the company is going to bring them. And most of the time, I find that people wait too long, because as you start getting annoyed, as you start getting frustrated, you inevitably bring that into the job, and that makes it less likely that your boss is going to promote you, that makes it less likely that you are going to get the next thing. So, it's kind of this weird cycle that, you know, there's a sweet spot. The sweet spot, it depends on every person, every personality, but in my experience, it's usually within three years. And if you've hit that sweet spot, and your company hasn't been able to maximise your position and help you grow in it, then it's probably time to look for something else and take control of it. Because feeling like you're in control of that path, even if you're not entirely sure what you want to do, really helps just everything, it helps you feel better, it helps you feel more agency, it helps you maintain your own common inner equilibrium. And I think that we underestimate how important that is in our society.

Jeremy Cline 8:42
To what extent is this something that you can head off at the start of the process of getting this job that you started, call it three years ago? So, there's many careers which have defined career paths. So, for example, as regular listeners to this podcast will know, I'm a lawyer, and there is a fairly well-trodden career path from trainee to associate to senior associate to a salaried partner to equity partner to, if you get there, managing partner, that kind of thing. And so, you can kind of see the track, and you can see where the growth might lie. And I guess maybe there are other professions, other jobs where there isn't such a defined career path. So, is it a case of trying to find something that has that sort of defined career path, or does that not necessarily fit the bill here?

Becca Ribbing 9:39
I think honestly, the defined career path is what makes lawyers unhappy. Just in general, I'm not saying you're unhappy, but the stereotype of an American...

Jeremy Cline 9:48
I'm doing this podcast.

Becca Ribbing 9:50
Right. I think that defined career path actually hurts people. Because lawyers are a perfect example, you take a group of extremely smart people and who are very driven, and then you put them into this almost military system of regimented ranks, and you can't get from point A to point C without going through the ranks really methodically. And I think you're going to end up with a lot of burnout among that particular group of people, because it's really not actually going to work for most of them. It's not going to be as inspiring, it's not going to be at all passion driven, and it also makes it really hard to switch ships, right? I don't know about in the UK, in the US, if you want to be a professor, if you go and get your PhD, and you want to switch to another school, then you lose your tenure track, you end up starting over, unless you happen to be a rock star. I feel like with lawyers it's not quite so bad, but it is hard to switch from one law firm to another. I think that, in the US, a lot of lawyers end up going in-house. And when you go in-house, you can have a lot more of that ability to move around, maybe try a different company that's slightly bigger, try a slightly different industry, you have a lot more ability to switch within specialisations. You don't have to be strictly an employment lawyer that deals with maternity leave. You could hit a lot more areas of employment law. And I think that that's one of the reasons, I don't know, in my experience, I find that in-house lawyers tend to be a lot more happy. And I think that that's probably why I had never thought about it before you asked this question. But I'm like, huh, yeah, defined career path for really smart people tends to feel stifling.

Jeremy Cline 12:00
It's a really interesting perspective, I'll think about that one. Going back to this person who is now dissatisfied, is it always the case that it's about the lack of challenge that comes with progression or moving jobs? Or is there sometimes wider internal changes? So, things like values, which we've talked about on this podcast before, whether those might shift over time. Is that another reason why things might be starting to feel not quite right?

Becca Ribbing 12:34
I mean, certainly. I think that, as we grow, our values do shift. And I think you can talk about kind of micro values and macro values, values you have for you within the world, and values you have maybe for you for your life. I think that having kids is a big one. Before you have kids, maybe working 10 hours a day isn't a problem at all, if you really love your job. Whereas once you have kids, 10 hours a day means that you don't necessarily get to put the kids to sleep. I think that we're all growing, and I think that, to get to a point that I think you kind of brought up earlier, to head it off in the future, I think that when you recognise when you take a job, that you are going to feel this way in two to three years, and really be on the lookout for it, can help, because it can give you more of a sense of urgency. I think that, when you start feeling it, it's this very subtle progression at first, and most people couldn't necessarily mindfully articulate what they are feeling at the beginning. And by the time they can mindfully articulate what they're feeling, a lot of times it's my boss is breaking his promises, my company doesn't promote people. It's not really focused on your own internal wants and needs, it's focused on what other people are doing and giving you or not giving you. And I think that being able to take back that agency, recognise this is going to happen, this job is great right now, and that's awesome, and in three years, if this job isn't still feeling great, that's okay, too. It might be, but if it's not, I can really proactively start job searching, and I can really proactively start looking within myself to see what's next, because I think that sometimes those values do shift, and we don't really recognise it. I think that's the thing that really inspired me to write the clarity journal, I was going through my own cycle of this, and I was talking to a friend, and I love my friend, but she stopped me after the fifth time I was complaining, and she was like, 'Becca, you're a coach. What would you tell yourself?' And I realised just how important it is to be able to ask yourself these questions like an outsider looking in. So, when she asked me that, I got off the phone with her really quickly, I went and wrote every single question I could think of that I ask my clients to help them gain momentum and clarity. And as I was doing that, I just realised how important and how useful it is to have those questions to help break yourself out of your own internal loops and be able to look at the problem in a different way.

Jeremy Cline 15:31
If someone is either anticipating at the start of a new job that they might start to feel like this in three years' time, or they're starting to see the signs, because they've already been there for two or three years, is this always going to be about looking for new jobs? There's going to be limited things perhaps that an existing job can offer you, as we've talked about, in terms of promotions or that kind of thing, but are there things that you can look for that don't involve that big step of changing jobs? So, I'm just thinking about the person who's kind of thinking, 'What!? You mean, I'm supposed to be changing jobs every three years, that's exhausting!'

Becca Ribbing 16:15
I think it depends on the personality type, honestly. I suspect, now that you've asked that question, that my client base tends to be the job changers. But I think that there are certainly ways, I think that those ways do require you to be able to head it off early enough. I think that a lot of times when people switch jobs, it's because they've gotten so burned out, that they get stuck. So, I'm kind of thinking that, if you were in a job where you were starting to feel that, then looking for a new project that you could do, that would require some new learning, certainly, we talked about getting a promotion, but there's also shifting jobs within an organisation. Maybe not as a lawyer, but I know a lot of people who end up, if they're in a bigger company, moving from one position to another, it might be more lateral, but it gives them a broader base of skills. So, that way, when they do go for the promotion they can, I think that really being even able to articulate to your boss exactly what you're feeling, if you are getting frustrated, when you're talking about wanting a promotion, I think a lot of times when people talk about that promotion, they're really often framing it as a career path slash monetary thing. And that's true, certainly. But it is also about this creative challenge, and the more that you can bring that into the discussion, the more that you can bring in, like I've really loved this job, I think it's been great, it's really helped me grow, I really want to continue building these skills, and the thing I'm doing has become rote, and I'm not being as effective as I could be, because I'm not growing. I think it does help. It really depends on the boss, right? And certainly, a lot of bosses are going to be like, 'I don't care about your self-actualisation.' But I think that that's where that balance lies, right? If your boss or your company doesn't care about your self-actualisation at all, and you need creative growth, then it might be time to look for a job, and three years is a respectable amount of time for most industries. I know it's not in the legal field, but in most industries, three to five, three years is like a reasonable time to start moving on.

Jeremy Cline 18:52
You mentioned there the needs or the possibility of articulating to your boss, what it is that's going on in your mind. And in order to articulate to someone else, you're going to need to be able to articulate it to yourself, which I suspect is one of the biggest challenges here. So, can you talk about some of the ways that a person can articulate what's going on to themselves, rather than it just being a massive, I think I know what's going on, I think we just need a promotion, rather than taking these steps back and really getting to the heart of what it is that is going on?

Becca Ribbing 19:34
So, I think that it's really about being able to be honest with yourself consistently and really dedicating yourself to exploring it. I often joke, we are in the ADHD generation, right? And I don't think it's because we all have ADHD, but I could be wrong. We all have access to our cell phone, and whenever we are even the slightest bit bored, we can pick up our cell phone, we can hop on our computer, we can really drown out those thoughts. And if you think about it, that's not that much different than drinking to avoid your problems. I mean, it's certainly healthier on your liver. But I think that we forget that, if we don't have time to sit with ourselves, and we've become so uncomfortable sitting with ourselves, one of the reasons why I tell people to journal, as opposed to literally just sitting and thinking is, I find, and I find a lot of people also experience this, if I'm just sitting and thinking, it's almost like an itch, it's like my hand starts gravitating towards the phone, and I want to pick it up, and then I'll get a text, and I want to pick it up. And that distraction, even if I'm doing that 10 times while I'm sitting, that distraction really keeps you from really going deep. So, I really love things like the clarity journal, there are lots of different journals out there, or just journaling on your own. But when you're journaling on your own, you have to really make sure that you're being honest with yourself. I think some people fall into one of two categories. They're either super complaining about whatever the situation is, I mean, if you go look at my journals from high school, every single journal, every single page is about whatever guy problem I'm experiencing at the time. There are definitely people who do that. Hello, I'm Becca, and I'm one of them sometimes. And then, there's also some people that really put a band aid on it, try to make it all seem flowery and bubbly and can't let themselves feel the annoying emotions and see them for what they are, because they reflexively turn away from that feeling. So, it's one of the reasons why I like guided journals, because it can help you really inspire some thought in a way that maybe you weren't able to access before. And you also have something in your hand. Like when you're journaling, you literally have a pen in your hand or you're typing, and so, you don't have that same gravitating back to the phone, as you would if you were just sitting and doing nothing. But I think that that's really the key point, that you have to become more mindful about what's going on within yourself, and that's not an easy task. I can't give you one simple exercise to totally understand what is going on with you in relationship to your work. It's really kind of making it a priority, because when we're not happy at work, it really affects so many aspects of our lives. I know for me, when I'm not happy, I know for my husband, when he's overwhelmed or stressed at work, he's snapping at me, he's snapping at the kids, I'm snapping, it just ends up adding friction. You may start procrastinating, because what you really want to be doing, you're not letting yourself do. And so, it just really ties into a lot of different things, where I think it's important to recognise those warning signs for what they are, and not necessarily that your husband's a jerk, because he didn't do the dishes, because he was really busy. Recognising it's like, 'Oh, I'm under stress, but it actually doesn't have to do with that, but it's easier for me to let that stress go by being annoyed at him, versus being proactive in my own life.'

Jeremy Cline 23:34
And this exercise or a series of exercises, so it might be structured journaling, is this something which people might want to think about doing regularly, when you do this on a daily basis, weekly basis, whatever? Or is this something to do when you've got these warning signs coming at you, you've got these feelings of dissatisfaction, you're not quite sure what it is? Or maybe it's yes to both or one or the other?

Becca Ribbing 24:05
I think it's personality. I mean, it'd be lovely if you could journal every day for the rest of your life and be super mindful. But I'm also aware that starts veering into, you could also become a monk, you could become a Buddhist monk in Thailand and like really hit Zen. What is in the realm of practicality for most people, I think, is maybe doing a monthly check in, maybe doing a weekly check in with themselves, but also, just starting to recognise that cycle of when they start feeling like things are going wrong, to really check in and make sure, in like a very deep way, that they know what they want, and that they really feel like they have a path forward. But I think that's also part of the thing, and again, circling back to something you said earlier about, when you were like, well, for some careers, moving every three years is really difficult, but I think that path forward also gives you a sense of agency. So, I think that really making sure at any given moment that you are on the path you want to be on, even if that does mean that you're going to stay for another five years in this position, can really help you look for challenges maybe in other ways, look for projects that you could take on at work, look for projects you could take on in your personal life. I mean, you have this podcast, a lot of people have those creative outlets outside of work, if their work can't provide it

Jeremy Cline 25:42
It raises an interesting question there, that age old question as to what extent work should provide aspects which are satisfying in your life or whether it is just kind of like, you know, the work bits on the side, that's the eight hours, the 10 hours a day, and then I just try and find bits outside of work which satisfy these yearnings. Personally, I've never found that entirely satisfactory, and that's kind of why I started the podcast, in order to explore whether that had to be the case.

Becca Ribbing 26:16
I think that it works for chiller people, like people who are kind of more laid back. It tends to work for those people the best. I think that, also, it works better for people who don't have kids. Because when you think about it, if you have kids, and you're working a full-time job, you're coming home to another full-time job that is not necessarily about you. There was a really interesting quote, and I'm going to totally mess this up, but there's a great book called All Joy And No Fun, and it is a book about parenting, and it kind of changed my life reading it. I don't read very many parenting books, but it was about why parenting is so hard and takes so much out of you emotionally. And she was at a conference, the author was at a conference, and she flagged down the man who wrote Flow, I always mess up his name, it's a very long name.

Jeremy Cline 27:20
I'll look it up and put it in the show notes.

Becca Ribbing 27:22
That would be great. He writes extensively about flow, he is the expert, he's a researcher. And she asked, 'Why can't I find flow in parenting?' And he was like, 'Oh, well...' or no, she asked, 'Why don't you write about flow as it relates with parenting?' And he was like, 'I have kids, there is no flow in parenting.' When you are parenting, the child is in flow. And you are basically their minion, like trying to make things happen for them, but your interaction with them is very rarely you being in flow, it's you reacting to them. And I thought that was really interesting, because it's so true. I mean, we love our children, but you know, if you come home, and you haven't been using all the parts of you you want at work, and then you come home, and you're still not using all the parts of you that you necessarily want to use, it's not everybody's mission in life to be the world's best parent. If you think it was, then maybe, but that's not, I love my kids, but that's not for most people the same thing as saying like, 'I have a life purpose.'

Jeremy Cline 28:40
So, someone who's listening to this, and they have so far bought into this idea of the dream job and the dream job for life, and they're perhaps beginning to feel a little bit disheartened about this, what are some words of comfort that you can give to that person?

Becca Ribbing 28:58
Hearing that it is a cycle actual gives comfort. Because I think that, when you are having an expectation that doesn't actually line up with most people's reality, there is comfort in recognising that it's not just you. A lot of times we feel like it is just us. We are so used to seeing the Instagram stories, reading Instagram posts, or whatnot, or listening to these podcasts, and everyone sounds like they're put together, why am I not put together? Everyone sounds like they know what they want to do with their lives, why am I having a hard time with this? Because you're probably, when you ask people to come on this podcast, you're probably not asking people that are like a hot mess at the current moment. You know what I mean? So, you're interviewing people usually after the fact, like after they've figured something out, you're not really necessarily hearing that messy middle, which is a great book, by the way, it's a term, and it's a book. And I think that it's really important to recognise that you're just in the messy middle, and it's important to embrace the fact that you're not alone, and the more that I think that you can seek out examples of you not being alone, I think the more that it helps, as long as you don't get too trapped in it. Because the real thing is to then recognise it and start taking back agency, however, that looks.

Jeremy Cline 30:29
I think I'd like to ask for a personal example, if that's okay. So, you said you've been coaching for a number of years, and you talked about this conversation you had with this person where you were unhappy, and that person said, 'Well, coach yourself.' So, what does it look like for you in terms of these cycles? What have you done personally? And I'm not saying this is what everyone needs to do, I just think, as an example, what is it that you've done that's kind of helped you to refresh yourself through these cycles in your coaching practice?

Becca Ribbing 31:01
It took me a while to recognise I was going through them, because there is a very strong sense when you're a coach, or you're a therapist, or any of these professions where you're the one who's supposed to have the answers, that's a lot of pressure. So, I guess I'll give the backstory. When I was in that situation, I had just had a really hard two years. I was coaching, but I also was running a mindfulness website, I had 90 authors writing for me, it was a labour of love, it wasn't making any money. But I really did, it was a labour of love. I loved it. And then, I got pregnant. And in my first trimester, I had a bad chiropractic adjustment, and I was basically disabled on and off throughout the rest of the pregnancy. I had to use a cane on and off, depending on the day, I never knew when I woke up whether I was going to be able to walk well. And this is, as a person who, this is my second child, my first pregnancy, I was one of those glowy, annoying pregnant people that was like doing yoga every day, I literally did yoga on the day my first kid was born. And so, it was just like shocking. I think if it had happened with my first kid, it wouldn't have been so shocking, because you hear all these stories, but it's like, oh, that doesn't happen to me. I have easy pregnancies. Well, no, I had like the pregnancy from hell. My husband got his dream job, so we moved in my third trimester from Washington, DC to Seattle, Washington, while I was experiencing all these physical problems, and I was just underwater. And then, the cute little baby was born, and he had chronic ear infections for the first year of his life. So, it was really hard to leave him in day-care for any period of time, because they had a really hard time clearing up the ear infections, and he was just fussy. He was in pain, so he wanted to be held, pretty much for the first year of his life. And it's funny, so when you're in that sort of situation, you let everything go. By the time the ear infection started, I had let go of my mindfulness website, and I really stripped down to bare minimum, tried to keep the baby alive, try to keep my business alive. But I think that, in some ways, it doesn't require something so intense, because we do have lots of cycles where we strip down to the bare minimum. I think that a lot of people are in that right now with the pandemic. And as I was coming out of it, as he got ear tubes, and he was feeling better, and the world was looking up for me, my hip got started getting better after about a year of physical therapy after I delivered him. And then, there's a hole. Like, there's this hole where you're like, who am I now, I've had all of these life changes, I've had all of these experiences, and there's just a dissatisfaction. And I think, on my part, the reason for the dissatisfaction in retrospect, was because I had stripped out everything but just taking care of clients, and I wasn't doing anything creative for myself. I didn't even recognise it. So, in her asking me that question, it helped me break out of that cycle. In me writing down all of these questions to ask myself, it helped me rediscover the things that I had lost touch of. And I think that a lot of people, even if they haven't had this crazy experience with moving and being disabled and having an ill kid, how often do we do that where we like had a part of ourselves we really liked, but circumstances changed it, and we don't use it as much anymore. And maybe we don't re-evaluate five years later, we just keep going. And we've lost this part. And I think this is where it really goes to values. What do you value? I mean, one of the things that I realised is I value writing. I love writing, and it's been a really major part of my side life. Yes, I love coaching, but I also really love communicating, and when you're coaching, you're listening a lot, you're not necessarily using your brilliant voice, you're really asking lots of really good questions, so that they can find their own inner brilliance, their own inner answers. And so, I think that making sure that, if you've let something go, you circle back and make sure that what you have right now is what you want.

Jeremy Cline 36:16
And this is something that people have been forced to do, I think, over the past couple of years, because a lot of things, at least towards the start of the pandemic, were taken away. So, people who regularly would go to exercise classes, suddenly, that wasn't an option, when all these businesses were in lockdown and closed to customers, and you can easily get stuck into this cycle of not doing that. And in some ways, you may almost find that you feel relieved that you've got that time back, and it's something that you're not doing, but then, you start thinking, actually, I did quite enjoy doing that. And then, the opportunity comes back again, and you've got to, as you say, re-evaluate, make that conscious effort to remember what it was that you enjoy doing and you like doing, and getting back into it. So, I think that's something that a lot of people will recognise as having experienced over the past couple of years.

Becca Ribbing 37:14
Yeah, I know. And I think that, recognising it for what it is actually just helps you really take back control. If you can recognise it, then you can really make it your own. And what it looks like today is not necessarily what it looked like five years ago. Again, we're always changing and growing. But what you want today really should be one of your priorities, to make sure that you actually at least know what you want today. Because if you don't know, then you're kind of going to be buffeted around by other people's wants and expectations.

Jeremy Cline 37:52
That is a great note to finish on, knowing what you want today, I love that. You've already mentioned a couple of books. Are there any other resources, apart from your own clarity journal, that you'd like to bring attention to the listeners?

Becca Ribbing 38:08
So, I am going to say that Burnout, it's another book, I love reading. So, it's Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle. And it has two authors. It's just really a great book, because it looks at burnout and overwhelm from an entirely different perspective than what I am talking about. It looks at it from a physiological standpoint. And it really gives you concrete ways to manage the stress that you are feeling through physical activity, through like just really being conscious when you are overwhelmed or burned out. Because I think that one of the things that happens is, when you are in this cycle, you often get burned out. And so, a lot of people who would be dealing with trying to figure out what they want to be doing with their lives, what their purpose is, also are feeling like they are definitely under stress, and that they are burned out. And stopping that cycle really helps you unlock clarity.

Jeremy Cline 39:20
And where would you like people to go to find you to reach out to you?

Becca Ribbing 39:24
You can get the Clarity Journal on Amazon and my website is beccaribbing.com. So, that's B-E-C-C-A-R-I-B-B-I-N-G. And I'm sure it's in the show notes.

Jeremy Cline 39:38
it certainly will be. Well, Becca, you've given us a lot to think about. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Becca Ribbing 39:45
Thank you.

Jeremy Cline 39:46
Okay, hope you enjoyed that interview with Becca Ribbing. Some people will tell you that what you really should be aiming for is the job for life. Whilst others will say, 'Well, no, the way that you refresh yourself is by moving around and seeking out new challenges.' And what's clear from the interview with Becca is that both of these perspectives are absolutely fine, and everything else in between. Job hopping can be indicative of not having taken the time to figure out what you truly want, what your values are, and figuring out what you really want to do. But if you have done that, and you're still finding after a few years that you want to move on and find new challenges, well, that's okay as well. As Becca said, it's knowing what you want today that matters. And as Becca said, it's also about giving yourself permission. It sounds silly, but I think there's a lot of power in this. We have in our heads lots of reasons why we can't look around, why we can't change career. And that acts as a brake on us just exploring some of these ideas. Sometimes I think we need to give ourselves permission to explore. Exploring something doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to act upon it, that you're necessarily going to make a change. But it's the act of exploration that can help you figure out what, if anything you need to do. It might be that you stay where you are, it might be that you move on. The message I got from this interview is that it's okay to think about these things and to explore them. And I've got a couple of exercises on my website which will help you do just that. If you go to changeworklife.com/happy, that's changeworklife.com/happy, there's a couple of exercises there which will help you to take a step back and figure out what it is in the past that you've enjoyed about your work, and what it is that you'd like your future to look like. And then, you can look at those and begin to take stock of where you are. So, the link again for those exercises, it's changeworklife.com/happy, that's changeworklife.com/happy. Also on the website or the show notes for this week's episode, there at changeworklife.com/127, that's changeworklife.com/127, for the full transcript and the summary of everything we've talked about, as well as the links to the resources that Becca mentioned. In two weeks' time, we've got another great interview, so subscribe to the show if you haven't already, and I can't wait to see you then. Cheers. Bye.