Episode 203: Can you be a generalist in the workplace? – with Steph Gillies of Destination Dream Job

Episode 203: Can you be a generalist in the workplace? - with Steph Gillies of Destination Dream Job

Jeremy Cline [00:00:00]:
At a time when it seems that everyone is expected to be a specialist, what do you do if you want to be a generalist? What do you do if you're multi passionate with lots of interests, and you want your work to reflect those multiple interests? That's what we're talking about in this week's episode. I'm Jeremy Cline, and this is Change Work Life. Hello and welcome to Change Work Life, the podcast where we're all about beating the Sunday evening blues and enjoying Mondays again. I'm a career coach, and in each episode my guests and I bring you tips, strategies and stories to help you enjoy a more satisfying and fulfilling working life. In my previous career, I was a specialist. I was a lawyer. I advised high net worth individuals. If you were in the industry, you kind of knew what I was about, and had I decided to stay in that career and just move jobs, it was pretty obvious what skills and experience I brought. But what do you do when your work history isn't as focused? How do you create your narrative when you've done a bit of this and a bit of that? If you're a multi passionate generalist, how do you even find a role that will suit you? To help answer these questions, I'm joined by Steph Gillies. Steph is a career story coach who, having had 32 jobs in 15 years, now helps multi passionate professionals embrace their authenticity and design their career story. Steph, welcome to the show.

Steph Gillies [00:01:37]:
Thank you so much for having me.

Jeremy Cline [00:01:40]:
Now, even if you include various part-time jobs I did as a student, I'm not sure my job count has made it to double figures in 30 years. How did 32 jobs in 15 years happen?

Steph Gillies [00:01:53]:
Well, I was younger in my career, so I was working multiple part-time jobs, or when I was in university, I was working a couple of part-time jobs on the side as well. And then I just thought that I knew what I wanted to do, and I would try the job, and then I would get bored. So, I'd start applying to other jobs and then see what else I could get. Then, I'd do those jobs for a little bit, and then I would get bored also, and then move on. And so, I eventually did graduate with a social work degree and ended up in the non-profit world. I think the longest stretch I've ever been at a job is five years. And one of those I was on maternity leave. So, technically, it was more like four years. But yeah, it was just in my younger years experimenting on a bunch of different jobs and different things that I could do. I worked at Starbucks, I taught rock climbing, I was a lifeguard, and I took people on horseback riding trips, stuff like that. There was lots of different variety in my jobs. And I worked at a bank for a little bit. That one wasn't really aligned with who I am, but it was an adventure. I mean, I learned a lot, but now looking back on that, if I had known about what informational interviews were, how you can communicate with people and understand what a job looks like before you jump into it, I probably would have saved myself a lot of those jobs.

Jeremy Cline [00:03:12]:
You say that, but I get the impression that probably the majority of people don't have that varied a career background, particularly early on. So, is this something which was intentional? Did you go out to try lots of different things, or did it just evolve organically that way?

Steph Gillies [00:03:31]:
Yeah, I was raised in a way where people believed that you had to be one thing. Right? So, you go to university, you get a job, you work there till you retire. And so, I was really worried about finding this one thing. And because I'm someone who is multi passionate, finding one thing sounded really stressful to me. And I was like, how am I going to find this one thing that I want to do for 40-plus years? I just couldn't imagine that happening. And so, really what it was, I'd be like, okay, this is what I'm going to do. I'm settled. I'm going to do this now. And then, I do that. And I was like, yeah, that didn't really work out. I didn't really like that. I'm bored now. And then, I would try something else. And so, it wasn't intentional. However, I wouldn't take it back. I thought it was a lot of fun, and I got really good at applying for jobs as a result of it. And that's probably what led me to where I am today.

Jeremy Cline [00:04:22]:
At least when people have, if you like, started their proper jobs, leaving aside what they might have done as a student, I tend to think of people becoming more specialists once they're in corporate careers. So, where do these generalists come from? Who are the people who are generalists and who have tried their hand at multiple different things, and I mean once they're fully into working life, if you like, and have left education?

Steph Gillies [00:04:51]:
Yeah. So, generalists can appear in lots of different ways. And there's lots of people who look like specialists in their day job, but really what they are is generalists. And how you can identify those people is, if you're wondering if you're a generalist, usually your manager will come to you and ask you to take on other projects. You might be that person who's like, 'Hey, that sounds really neat', and there's other projects going on at work, and you offer to help out with something else, or you jump around between teams. Another thing that generalists tend to do is break down those silos between teams. So, they tend to help teams work better together. So, instead of having the one team here, one team here and one team here, generalists will bring those teams together and be able to help people communicate better cross functionally. Those are some things that can help identify a generalist. But one thing to note is, most senior level professionals, like C-suites, are generalists. Because they don't do just one thing, right? They're managing lots of different things within their job. And so, those are typically the people who will come to me and be like, 'How do I create my career story?' Because I've done so many different things.' That can be another indication of a generalist. And other people who work at start-ups. A lot of people who work at start-ups tend to be generalists, because at start-ups you to wear many hats compared to larger organisations where your role might be more specified. In start-ups there's an opportunity to work across teams, to take on lots of different roles. And so, generalists tend to appear in those types of positions as well, or they're drawn to them a little bit more. So, there's lots of different ways that generalists can show up. Also, some people tend to be a specialist in their day job, but then you look at their personal life, and they have lots of different passions that they pursue in their personal life. So, it can look lots of different ways, but typically, you can identify them when they're at work and they're doing lots of different projects, or they're helping cross functionally across teams.

Jeremy Cline [00:06:55]:
That's really interesting. What you were saying about silos definitely resonated with me, because I think sometimes, and we'll probably talk about this a bit more, but when you have interests in different things, it can be hard to avoid being siloed in your particular area. So, I was a lawyer in the legal team at my company, when I started to talk about other things, people said, 'But you're a lawyer in the legal team, why would you want to get involved in this sort of thing?' And that could be quite challenging at times.

Steph Gillies [00:07:28]:
Yeah, I mean, you think about someone who's a doctor, and you might be like, oh, they're a specialist, but my dad was a doctor for many years, and he worked in a family practise, he also worked in a seniors home, he also did some shifts at emergency. So, he was kind of a generalist within his specialised field by taking on lots of different roles. And so, there's definitely opportunities in very specialised fields to also be a generalist. It's just not as open if you're in a very specialised industry or field.

Jeremy Cline [00:08:01]:
Now, when we set up this conversation, we talked about having a case study that we could talk to. And so, Steph, you've kindly provided us with Alex, who is a versatile start-up professional who's been laid off three times despite excelling in roles across operations, marketing and customer success. Now feeling uncertain and unemployable, Alex is searching for a clear path forward to leverage their wide ranging skills in a more stable, fulfilling career. And this fits in with what you were saying about people who work at start-ups being generalist, which is something that a previous guest of mine said. When you're working for a start-up, you are likely to have a hand in lots of different things and not be just the accounts person or just the marketing person or whatever.

Steph Gillies [00:08:55]:
Absolutely, yeah. And the tough thing, right now especially, is in the tech world, a lot of people are working for start-ups, but there's a lot of layoffs happening. So, this is a true story of one of my clients who did experience lots of layoffs, and some of those job positions were very short, just a few months or six months, and so they were feeling as though they weren't going to be employable going forward. And so, this is a great conversation to have, for sure.

Jeremy Cline [00:09:24]:
So, we've got feelings of uncertain, unemployable. Can you build on some of the thoughts, fears, beliefs that Alex had going around in their head when they just had their third layoff?

Steph Gillies [00:09:41]:
Yeah. So, I mean, if you look at the job industry, even five years ago, before the pandemic, people were asked about any gaps they had in their resume. If they weren't working for a few months, in an interview, they'd be like, 'Why do you have a job gap?' And so, people were very concerned about filling those gaps. And it was rare for people to have a gap. People were always working, or they were jumping from different positions. But then the pandemic happened, and the layoffs that we've experienced since then has been unprecedented, right? They haven't experienced layoffs like this in the past. And the tech industry is always going to be fast paced, fast moving industry. But in this situation, they were feeling that way because they had that belief that you shouldn't have a job gap on your resume. And if you also look at resume advice, it talks about excluding experiences that are less than six months. Every experience should be at least a year or more. And if this person was to do that, they would appear as if they hadn't worked in the past, like three or four years. And so, that simply wasn't true. And so, we really had to think outside the box for this situation, really help them create that career story that can reflect not only their skills, but also showcase things that typically previous to the pandemic would have been like resume no-nos, including shorter jobs and experiencing multiple short positions. And so, some of the ways that we did that was combining some of the roles together. And so, there were two positions that were very similar in terms of what they did on a daily basis. And so, instead of separating them on the resume and having two six-month positions, we combined them together, so it appeared as a year long position, because there was no gap between those two positions. It was a quick turnaround for them. And then just really identifying their most recent position and detailing that out more, so that they could showcase what kind of accomplishments they had in their experience, so they could show how they're going to show up for an organisation when they do start applying to jobs.

Jeremy Cline [00:11:50]:
And this joining two positions together, was that with the same employer? So, it was kind of quite explicable on that basis. Or was there a little bit of, well, I'll let you use the phrase if that wasn't the case.

Steph Gillies [00:12:04]:
Yeah, no, absolutely. They were not with the same employer. And this is something that I've done multiple times. Typically, you wouldn't want to do it if it's your most recent position, but if you're looking at positions two or three years back, and you have multiple, let's say someone was in the customer service space, and they had four different roles that were exactly the same, and they were just for different employers, what we would do is we would list the multiple employers, because we're not trying to hide the fact that they had more than one employer, but we're just having the one customer service title, listing the multiple employers, and then listing the accomplishments under that as one position. Just because there's no need to have five different positions that say the exact same thing. And so, that's a way just to get around not having to repeat yourself in multiple bullet points. But it's not like we're trying to hide it, right? We're not saying they only had one employer during this time. We're saying there was two employers. Sometimes we even detail out, this employer was these dates, and this employer was these dates. But the bullet points are the same, because they were very, very similar positions. So, that's just a great way to save space as well on your resume, and just to make it a little bit more impactful so the hiring manager isn't seeing the exact same bullet points for every single position.

Jeremy Cline [00:13:23]:
I can understand how presentationally, actually, that makes a lot of sense. But I'm curious as to whether any of your clients ever got any pushback at interviews. When a recruiter saw the customer service position, and then three or four different companies with three or four different dates.

Steph Gillies [00:13:42]:
It hasn't experienced any pushback in any of the clients that I've worked with. I mean, we're cautious about it. We don't just combine things just to combine things. We're not trying to hide, like really hide what happened, but just to showcase a little bit of, to make it simpler for the reader. But what I think the difference is when you think about writing your resume is there's a difference between being honest and being literal. So, in this case, they're not being dishonest. They're not lying. They're not hiding anything. They're just not being exactly literal about the exact thing that happened. And that's not necessarily what the hiring manager is looking for. They're looking for someone who can provide the results that they want during their employment. And so, if you can showcase that, and then showcase you have a really strong history of working, then typically, I've never experienced a problem with that.

Jeremy Cline [00:14:34]:
I think that's the important here. It's about what you're displaying in terms of the experience. So, the evidence that you've got, the experience that someone's looking for, and you don't, as you say, necessarily have to repeat the same number of things five times for five different positions in five jobs where you're all doing the same thing, when it makes sense just to say, 'Here are the skills that you're looking for. Well, I had experience of them during this period.'

Steph Gillies [00:15:01]:
Yeah, exactly. You got it.

Jeremy Cline [00:15:03]:
I feel like Alex probably has some confidence building to do here. So, how did you approach that? How did you and Alex work together to help Alex believe that there was a future out there?

Steph Gillies [00:15:18]:
I think the biggest part is just normalising it. A lot of people come to me, and they have gaps in their resume, or they've experienced a layoff, and they feel like, they're not going to call me, they're going to look at my resume and think this is too messy, we're not interested. But the thing is just really normalising that, so that if anyone's listening and has experienced a layoff or has a very similar story to this, this client, as well as many others that I've worked with, have gotten jobs, and they are employable. And so, it is normalising it that not everyone's career is linear. Most people think, 'Oh, well, my career is so messy, but everyone else just went in this upward trajectory, and mine just went all over the place.' But honestly, I've written over a thousand resumes and worked with hundreds of people on their career story, and very few of them have a very linear career path. Lots of people come in, and they did one thing, and then they're like, 'That wasn't really what I wanted', and they moved on to something different, or they got stuck in a job, and they just thought, 'This is what I'm going to do', and then, 15 years later, they're like, 'Oh, this was supposed to be temporary and now here I am.' So, now they want to change into something different. And so, I think the really important part of it is to know that you're not alone. Everyone's career path is messy. Everyone has ups and downs. Everyone has loops that they go through with their career. It is very rare for me to see a career that goes straight up in a line. And so, I think that that's the biggest part about it, normalising that for the clients, and then also helping them really see what makes them unique and how these situations play into their strengths and their skills. I've worked with people who are new immigrants, and I'm in Canada, and so when they first come to Canada, they get a job working at Walmart or working at a store, doing something just because they want that Canadian experience and be able to learn the language and different things like that. And they're always like, 'Oh, well, this isn't really relevant to my career path.' But I think it's very relevant, because it showcases a huge, that's something that most of us, people who are native to Canada, wouldn't experience. Moving from a new country, learning a new language, being able to assimilate to a new job market. And so, I think that really helping these clients, and especially this person here, identify what skills they can bring out from these different experiences and how maybe being laid off three times lets them be more adaptable and more versatile. And with their different experience across operations, marketing and customer success, they bring a different out of the box thinking view when they come into a new position, because they've done positions in all these different areas. And so, when they come into a new role, they're able to provide the view of what it would be like from the customer perspective, what it's like from the marketing perspective, and that allows them to offer some more unique solutions to the organisation.

Jeremy Cline [00:18:25]:
It's interesting what you were saying in the first bit of your answer there about how people do have a tendency to believe that they're the outlier, that theirs is the one with the messy CV, and everyone else has got it together and has found the career of their dreams and seems to know what they're doing, when in fact, that's not the truth at all. Everyone pretty much, I think being held together and having the defined career path and knowing exactly what you're doing, those people are probably the outliers.

Steph Gillies [00:18:54]:
Absolutely. For sure. I mean, like I said, it's very rare for me to see a linear career path. And when I do, I'm always like, 'Wow, are you interested in this job still?' Most of them come to me because they want to change. So, even their linear career path is something that they're looking to maybe change or get out of or do something different.

Jeremy Cline [00:19:14]:
So, there seems to be two stages here. There's stage one, figuring out what Alex wants to do next. And then, stage two is creating the story that's going to help convince employers that Alex is the person they need. Is that right in terms of the stages to go through?

Steph Gillies [00:19:32]:
I usually include a stage before that, and the first one would be the self-discovery. So, really figuring out what sets you apart, what makes you unique, and what kind of accomplishments you have through your career. And then we go into that career clarity. So, helping them identify what they've liked and what they haven't liked about their previous positions, what kinds of things they'd like to keep doing and things that they don't ever want to do again. And then moving into that build, turning that into a career story, which can include the resume, cover letter, LinkedIn, the elevator pitch, which is the answer to tell me about yourself questions or how you introduce yourself in networking situations. And so, that's kind of start to finish. So, it's a self-discovery, career clarity, and then building into the career story.

Jeremy Cline [00:20:19]:
With the first two, what's the end product? When you're describing this process to Alex, what they're going to get at the end of stage one and the end of stage two, before we get onto the third stage?

Steph Gillies [00:20:38]:
Yeah. So, at the end of stage one is really about helping them identify what makes them unique. And so, what I mean by that is, when you look at a sales professional who's applying to a position, and they say, 'Oh, the thing that makes me unique is I exceeded my targets every quarter for the past year.' Well, that's not really unique in the sales industry, because, I mean, you could find a hundred different salespeople who've exceeded their targets in the past year. So, what I talk about when I say what makes you unique is really diving in and figuring out what makes you different. And when we look at the job market now, because it's so competitive, the only thing that sets us apart is who we are as a person. So, our authenticity, our uniqueness, what we bring to the table, that's truly different from other people. So, I always ask my clients, 'What do you think sets you apart?' And they always tell me, 'I'm really good at communication, and I'm an empathetic leader.' There's the same thing. Almost everyone tells me that. And I mean, those are great qualities, but they're not necessarily things that make you unique. So, I had a client who was in sales, which is why I pick on this story, and she was also a yoga instructor. And typically, those two things don't go together. Right? You'd be like, yoga instructor and sales, those are completely opposite things. But being a yoga instructor was a huge part of who she was and spoke to a lot of her personality and her beliefs and her outlook on life. And so, what we actually did was, we took that, the yoga instructor, and we incorporated it into her resume and explained how being a yoga instructor made her a more empathetic leader, helped her communicate and relate better to people, which then helped her build her sales skills, because she was able to draw upon her experience in yoga to build stronger relationships with clients. And so, then when a hiring manager looks at that resume, they can see, oh, no one else is a yoga instructor, and no one else talked about how being a yoga instructor is going to impact her career. And so, I've done that with lots of different people who've been ironman triathletes or different things that they have on the side. And you don't even have to be some yoga instructor, ironman triathlete. There are other things within our life that we can draw upon to showcase what makes us different.

Jeremy Cline [00:22:56]:
It's kind of like the Venn diagram. The uniqueness is in the Venn diagram. There can be this pressure to say, 'Oh, what is unique about me?', and you start to think, well, I kind of am just like every other lawyer out there or every other sales professional out there, but it's finding these additional things. So, I might be the only one, I'm almost certainly not the only lawyer who's also an amateur musician, but then it's that kind of thing, that sets me apart a bit further. And then maybe there's something else which I've done. And so, you get this just by a process of narrowing down all the things, you're going to be one of a smaller and smaller pool of people who have this particular range of experiences, I guess.

Steph Gillies [00:23:41]:
Absolutely. And just like you're talking about being an amateur musician, if you had that on your resume, a hiring manager might see it and relate to that, and be like, 'Oh, that's cool, you know, I do that too', or something. And that might help you create that human connection that wouldn't otherwise be created with just a document. So, even I would say, again, five years ago, we were telling people to remove their hobbies, remove their interests from the resume. But I actually want to go back to that, because I think that's a huge part of who we are, but not just listing a hobby section. I don't think that's beneficial, just like, oh, these are my hobbies. I really think it's about telling a story and showcasing how being an amateur musician has impacted your career or who you are as a person. So, telling more of that story than just listing it on your resume.

Jeremy Cline [00:24:33]:
Okay, so that was stage one, figuring out what makes you unique. Stage two, I think you said it was career clarity.

Steph Gillies [00:24:40]:
Yeah, so it's just a lot of people that come to me are just not 100% sure if this is the area that they want to be in. They're like, I kind of fell into this, or I got stuck in this industry, and I'm just not sure if this is what I want to keep doing. But I don't know what I want to do. And so, it's really about identifying. I always encourage people to create three categories. The things they love doing, the things they're kind of okay with doing, they don't really care, take it or leave it, and the things they absolutely hate doing and never want to do again. So, I'll give myself as an example. I used to work with kids like all the time. I taught preschool, I volunteered in kids programmes, I worked at a non-profit that was revolving around after school care type programmes. And I actually don't really enjoy working with kids that much. But I was very good at it, right? And so, I was like, oh, I'm good at it, so I should just keep doing it. But when I did this chart, what I loved, what I didn't care for or what I didn't want to do again, it made it clear that I actually prefer working with adults versus kids and teenagers. And so, that made decision making in my career very different than had I just kept going with the thing that I'm good at, even though I wasn't really enjoying it. And so, we get really clear on what things they're interested in, and then we take those skills, and we place them into what different opportunities there are out there for those skills that you're really interested in and the things that you want to keep doing, and really identifying different opportunities that are out there. Having written so many resumes, someone can just tell me their top, these are the things that I want to do, and I can provide them with different job opportunities, just because I've seen so many different resumes, and I've seen so many different skills transfer across positions and across industries. And so, I really think that people's opportunities are a lot bigger than they think they are. And so, that's really about identifying their skills and then what opportunities they have out there, and then doing a little bit of research into those opportunities and those jobs, to see if they actually would be a fit. Because there might be something where you're like, oh, this job hits all the top 10 skills that I really want to do. But they work in an office, and I want to work remotely. That's not going to work for me or whatever. Right? So, just making sure that the job does fit into your lifestyle or the other things that are priorities for you and your values.

Jeremy Cline [00:27:09]:
So, for someone like Alex, would you expect them to be looking for a specialist job or something with a lot of variety, maybe back in the start-up world?

Steph Gillies [00:27:21]:
Yeah, I mean, we live in a specialist world, which is not great news for generalists who have a varied background. And so, the tough part about someone like Alex who has three different areas of experience, operations, marketing and customer service, is if they are applying for jobs, they really need to be applying to three different positions. Right? So, they'd be applying to operations jobs, whatever the marketing positions they're interested in, and those customer success, which means that they need to change their job search strategy for each of those positions. So, if they were like, 'Yes, I want to be open to all three positions', that typically means that you need three different resumes, one for operations, one for marketing, one for customer success, so that you can really speak to the hiring manager. When you have a resume, or your messaging is, oh, I'm good at all three of these things, and I'm just going to create something more general, you typically don't resonate with anybody. Just because we live in this world where people want experts, you have to show up as an expert. And then, once you get into the role, then you can start taking on more projects and doing more of that generalist work, or like you said, focusing more on that start-up stage, focusing more on organisations that are in start-up phases, and then you will have more opportunities to be more generalist right away. But if people are looking for larger organisations, they do have to get specific and focus on one position, and then from there, they can bring their generalist self to work once they get the job.

Jeremy Cline [00:28:56]:
So, would you advise someone like Alex to look for different jobs in operations, customer success and marketing, or would it be better for them to make a choice of one and start there? Because I'm thinking that it could get a little bit, I don't know, more stressful and more confusing if you're applying to three different categories of jobs. It feels like a lot more work.

Steph Gillies [00:29:24]:
Oh, it's absolutely more work, for sure. I usually recommend people have between one and a maximum of three jobs that they're trying to target. Because like you said, once you have three, you're doing a lot more work, you're always pulling on a different resume, you're reading different job postings. So, it can definitely be more work. In this person's case, they did have a resume for each of those three, and they did apply to each of those positions for a couple of months to see which resume resonated most with hiring managers. And they ended up getting most of their interviews in the operations and marketing space, and not very many in customer success. So, then they targeted their search going forward into the operations and marketing and left the customer success, unless they saw a position that they really, really liked. So, they focused it on those two. But I typically do recommend people try to focus on one or two, maybe three, because like you said, it's going to be definitely more work. But if you start out by creating three different resumes, it's a lot less work. It's when people have one resume, and they're like, okay, now I want to apply to the marketing position, they need to change their resume. Oh, now I want to apply to operations, they have to change their resume again. So, having those three different resumes can be helpful, so that if you see a job posting, and you're like, oh, that one resonates with me, I'm just going to send this version of my resume, that can definitely be more helpful, and then you don't have to spend as much time doing it. But the more targeted you are, the less time you're going to spend job searching, right?

Jeremy Cline [00:30:57]:
Are there any areas which, as a general rule, lend themselves better to someone who is more of a generalist than a specialist? So, taking Alex as an example, would Alex be more likely to find a more generalist position in operations or marketing or customer success? Or does it really come down to the individual companies?

Steph Gillies [00:31:29]:
It is mostly the individual companies. Some companies are really open to having people who have multiple skill sets, and some companies are just not right? They want their specialists, they want you to come in, they want you to do your job, and that's it. So, it really depends on the organisation, and I would even say the industry. But the higher you get in terms of leadership and management, the more and more generalist you tend to get. Because once you have to start leading teams as well as doing your work, and then leading operations and budgeting, and so when you start getting more advanced in your career, taking on leadership roles, they tend to just gravitate towards being generalists anyways, because there's a lot of different things they have to manage. But again, I would say it depends on the organisation, and not all organisations are open to having people who are generalists on their team at this stage.

Jeremy Cline [00:32:25]:
So, Alex ended up with three different CVs for the three different areas of interest. How did Alex create the story for each of those? How do you go about drawing out the relevant bits of your CV and focusing on them when you've got these three, I'm sure there's some overlap, but potentially quite distinct areas?

Steph Gillies [00:32:53]:
So, when you think about the operations position, so what we would do is we would identify the top five skills that each of these positions drew upon. And then, when you look at the work experience section of the resume, we would identify bullet points that were specific to those skills. And so, the work experience description and accomplishments, they don't always change that much, but the way you tell the story can change. So, maybe in marketing, we focused more on revenue growth or community engagement for a bullet point, versus operations was more heavy focused on the revenue growth or process improvements. And so, really knowing what the skills are that the hiring manager is looking for for those specific positions, and then identifying those and highlighting those in the bullet points is how we identify it. And then, at the top section of the resume, the career summary and the skills would obviously be completely different and focus on different skills based on those positions. I have another client who had been working for 15 years in the banking industry. And she was interested in moving into non-profits. And she'd been applying for jobs for a long time, but wasn't getting any call-backs because her resume was focused on the banking world. And so, what we did was we really identified that story why she wanted to make this change. And then, we highlighted, we did a completely different approach to her resume, we actually brought up her volunteering experience above the work experience section and highlighted all the different volunteering experiences she had done, any fundraising she had done, things like that. And then, when we looked at the work experience, we actually didn't talk at all about the banking stuff. We didn't talk about revenue, we didn't talk about anything like that. We talked about the diversity, equity and inclusion group she created. We talked about the team that she led and how she brought them into the community to volunteer in order to give back. And so, those were the things we focused on. Those were like asides of her job. But when you're looking at the hiring manager for a non-profit organisation, that's what they want to see. They don't really care about the banking side of it. And she was able to secure a director level position, same level position as she was in in the bank, in two months in a non-profit. And so, it's really about speaking to the hiring manager the way that they want to be spoken to. And you don't have to put something on there just because you did it. You can take things out and get creative with it. And that's what the storytelling is about, really getting creative with it and telling a different story than maybe a traditional resume would.

Jeremy Cline [00:35:28]:
Something that's coming across is, there's a tendency for people just to stick everything down on their resume, in the assumption that the hiring manager is going to sift out the relevant stuff, and then they will be able to use that to figure out whether or not the person's a fit. Whereas I think what you're saying is that really you need to give the hiring manager as much help as you can. You need to make it really, really clear why it is that the skills that you're highlighting in your resume are fit for what they want, rather than leaving it to them to go, 'Well, okay, yeah, this bit's a bit of a fit. Yeah, I can see how this works. This, that's not really relevant.'

Steph Gillies [00:36:13]:
Absolutely. So, if you think about, the average job application gets 250 applicants, and typically one hiring manager has to decide maybe like 10 or 15 of them to interview, and they have 250 resumes to go through. They don't have time to be like, 'Oh, is this, do you think A and B go together here?' Like, they're not doing that. They want you to tell them, they want to look at a document, and they want you to tell them exactly how you're going to make a difference, what impact you can have on the organisation, and whether you have the skills they're looking for. That's all they care about. And they usually spend six to eight seconds on a resume. And so, if you can't do that really quickly, then your resume is going to get into the maybe next time pile. And a lot of people, like you said, they don't know what to put on their resume, and it's really about spending some time really identifying what it is that sets you apart, so that you can create a document that's going to stand out when you start getting to the application stage of your job search.

Jeremy Cline [00:37:15]:
And when it comes to tailoring the CV for, in Alex's case, these three different types of positions, is it kind of always the case that there's something somewhere that you can turn around to fit into each of those three? Or do you ever get to the stage where there is a position, a certain amount of experience, six months a year, where you just can't get that, so a success position, and you just can't crowbar into an operations CV? And if that is the case, what do you do with that?

Steph Gillies [00:37:53]:
Yeah, absolutely. I think about people that I've worked with who took some time off to maybe raise children or to look after sick family members, they might have a large job gap, and they're just not sure how to create a resume. And so, what we do in that situation is we add the stay-at-home parent or caring for ailing individuals, we add that as a job experience. And while it may not be relevant to, let's say with this person, that might not be relevant to marketing, it does show who you are as a person, and it shows that you are empathetic and different things like that. And so, including those things like staying at home as a parent, and including that as a work experience and then adding bullet points under it, you might not be able to make those relevant to marketing, because looking after your kids and planning their schedules might not be relevant to marketing, but it does show a little bit of diversity. And so, if you do have a work experience that isn't relevant to this position, you have a couple of choices. One, you can keep it really short, so just have it there and have like one or two bullet points under it or detail out a little bit more. And then, when you get to the interview stage, it's an opportunity just to talk about how this experience gives you that diverse perspective, or how this experience has impacted you as a person. Because not everyone, like we said, all their positions aren't going to be exactly relevant to what we're talking about. But even when you think about staying at home as a parent and then applying for marketing positions, there's still an aspect of customer service involved in marketing. And so, you can always talk about the customer service side of being a stay-at-home parent, or managing multiple personalities while you're trying for multiple kids. And that can be something that is relevant towards the marketing stage. And so, I mean, you can get really creative with it in terms of making it relevant, but at the end of the day, it's your story, and you need to be comfortable telling that story. And so, I've had people leave two-year roles off their resume, because they felt more comfortable speaking to a job gap than they did speaking about an extremely toxic work environment. And so, it really is about what the individual feels most comfortable talking about, and how they can bring a full story to the interview stage.

Jeremy Cline [00:40:22]:
There's a small cynical part of me that thinks that using a two-year, looking after the kids gap, and trying to describe the experience of that and how that's going to help you in a marketing role, whilst I see the logic, I don't know, it feels like a bit of a stretch. Or am I just being like an old Gen Xer who doesn't understand how things work these days?

Steph Gillies [00:40:48]:
No, I mean, for sure. And it's not going to resonate with everybody, right? I spoke with someone the other day who's my client, and she also did hiring for her role and project management, and she said that when people were stay-at-home parents, she actually was like, 'I definitely want to interview them', because in project management, you're always handling multiple tasks, and it's very stressful or whatever. And so, she's like, 'And whenever I hired someone who had been a stay-at-home parent, they always excelled in the role. I was able to teach them the day-to-day of what they needed to learn or our specific processes. But they came in, and they were able to hit the ground running and do things a lot better than maybe somebody else would be able to.' And so, you have to definitely have to get to the right hiring manager with that. But I think it's a miss to exclude it completely. And whether it's relevant or not relevant towards your current position, if you have a two-year job gap, and you talk about what you've done in those two years, it's going to resonate more with the hiring manager than just to be like, 'I sat at home and ate chips on my couch for two years.' Right? You were doing something. And so, whether you were taking a course or whatever you were doing, if you have a job gap, it's great to talk about that, because it does show some sort of growth and whatever you can provide to the organisation. Literally, people are like, 'What did you do? Were you just sitting at home doing nothing, or were you doing something?' And so, if you can showcase some skills and something that you can bring to the table that you were doing during a job gap, I think that's more beneficial.

Jeremy Cline [00:42:24]:
So, Alex has these three CVs, applying in specialist areas, and gets a couple of job offers. Now, my guess is that someone like Alex is going to want to go for roles where, yes, it may be an operations or a marketing role, but there is scope for this multi passionate person to get involved with different things. I guess the way you identify that is possibly from the job description, but probably more from interview and discussions with people at the company, is that right?

Steph Gillies [00:43:05]:
Yeah, I would say that. With this client specifically, they asked a lot of questions in the job interview around what the workplace culture was like and different things like that, to gain some more of that information. However, in an interview, they're always going to be on their best behaviour. So, are they going to share exactly what it's like to work there? Maybe not. So, other ways that you can go about it is doing some research into their social media, look at Glassdoor or other online forums like that, where people are able to post true versions of what it's like to work there, looking on Reddit, if there's anything about that organisation. And then, you can always reach out to people through LinkedIn that work at that company and ask what it's like to work there, try to get more of a feel for the culture that way. So, those are other ways that you can help to understand the culture. While they're not all as reliable as being there, it can give you a little bit of an indication to help you make a more informed decision. But I mean, that's really the best you can do, but again, some of my clients will find they do all that research, then they join the company, and they're like, 'This wasn't at all what I expected.' And then, they're back looking for a job again. So, that happens, right? Those things happen. And that's a risk you have to be willing to take when you move from a position. I mean, it's a risk to stay if you're unhappy, and you don't want to be in that position anymore. It's a risk on your mental health and everything to stay in that position. But it's also a risk to move on to something new where it could be not what you were expecting it to be, or it's not quite the fit you wanted it to be. So, you have to pick and choose what you feel is more risky, and what you'd be willing to take on.

Jeremy Cline [00:44:49]:
Yeah, and I guess there's an extra veneer to add to that research. So, as well as looking at whether company culture is a good fit for you, whether you think you would enjoy turning up and being part of those colleagues, there's also trying to get a feel for the culture as to whether it is somewhere where someone can try lots of things, get involved in different things, act as that, go between departments, rather than ending up just as this siloed person who's not expected to get out of their box.

Steph Gillies [00:45:23]:
Yeah, I mean, I've had clients ask in an interview, 'Do you guys tend to work on more siloed teams, or do you work cross functionally?', just to kind of get an understanding of what that looks like. Because there's not necessarily a right or wrong in an organisation, it's just more about the way they do things and their own processes. So, that's a pretty easy question to ask, and they should be able to answer that pretty truthfully. So, I think that's a great way to find out more.

Jeremy Cline [00:45:48]:
Sometimes I'm curious as to whether or not companies would answer that question entirely truthfully. Oh, yes, we're absolutely cross functional. And then, you get there and discover that everyone really is in their own box. But anyway. Presumably, once Alex is there, they can start looking for these opportunities as a generalist to get involved with other things, even if that's, I don't know, being part of the social committee that organises the end-of-year holiday party or something like that.

Steph Gillies [00:46:15]:
Exactly. And some generalists who join very siloed organisations, they change things at a systemic level and start helping organisations become more cross functional. So, if you're willing as a generalist to take that on, that is something that some organisations are open to, and that can be something that you can bring a huge benefit to the organisation.

Jeremy Cline [00:46:36]:
There's going to be an element of seeing how the land lies before you can do that sort of thing. And also, possibly being hesitant about volunteering for things too readily, when someone says, 'Hey, do you want to be a fire marshal?', it's kind of like, I don't know, do I want to be a fire marshal? So, I mean, how long, and you mentioned, sometimes things just don't work out, how long should Alex give it to make that assessment as to whether there really is a future here that will satisfy Alex's generalist tendencies and that it is a good fit?

Steph Gillies [00:47:17]:
I mean, that's a great question, and I think that can be a very personal question for people. I mean, I've known people who left jobs in the probation period because it just wasn't a fit. And then I've had people give it a year in order to see if anything changes, or if they just misunderstood in the first few months. But I think a minimum, I mean, my opinion, and everyone's different, so if other people want to make different decisions for themselves, that's fine, but I think you'd have to give it a minimum of six months to a year to really understand what the organisation is about. Because if you come in during a big change like a merger and acquisition, you don't really get a feel for what the culture's like, because everyone's in transition, and change is all around. And so, you really need to see an organisation through all four seasons to really be able to determine whether or not the culture is something that you want to be a part of or not a part of. And so, I think about it like when you get married, right, you want to see someone at least through four seasons before you get married to see how they act in each season, right? It's the same with a company. Before you commit to staying for however long, it's good to see them through all the different seasons of the organisation, the times when they're really busy, the times when they're really quiet, when they might be struggling or when a big change might happen, those can all give you some data to go off of. But just because you've accepted a job doesn't mean you can't keep looking. So, if you're in a job, and you're like, 'I'm not 100% sure about this', just keep looking. Companies are not hesitating to lay people off nowadays, so we shouldn't be hesitating to leave a job for a better one if one comes up.

Jeremy Cline [00:49:01]:
Some people, and these are typically business owners, entrepreneurs, describe themselves as unemployable. Is anyone really unemployable?

Steph Gillies [00:49:12]:
No, I don't think so. I actually love writing entrepreneur resumes. So, I've worked with a few of them who either have shut down their business or have decided to go back to work. And the great thing about being an entrepreneur is your background is so diverse, right? So, when we talk about creating bullet points under each work experience that's specific to each position, that is the easiest to do with someone who's an entrepreneur. Because if this person, if Alex, let's say, her most recent position was an entrepreneur, it would be the easiest to create an operations, marketing and customer success resume, and have the bullet points be very specific to each of those three things because of their background as an entrepreneur. I worked with someone who owned a bike park here in the city that I live in, and he ended up shutting it down. And he said he was unemployable, and I was like, absolutely not. And he wanted to get into marketing. And so, we really focused his experience running this bike park on how he marketed it and grew it and what those numbers were and the engagement that he got. And then, he was able to land a job after that. And so, I think people, when they say that, it might be more of a mindset thing, like, I can't have a manager again. That makes sense. I can get on board with that. But in terms of being unemployable on the skills side of things, definitely not. If anyone wants to go back to work, they absolutely can. It's just about creating that story on the resume again.

Jeremy Cline [00:50:37]:
So, if Alex, having listened to this episode, is inspired to find out a bit more, what tools or resources can you suggest that they might explore to dive deeper into the topic?

Steph Gillies [00:50:51]:
Yeah, for sure. So, there's a book called How to Be Everything by Emilie Wapnick, and it's just about, if you're a generalist, she calls it a multi potentialite, so someone who just has lots of multiple potentials. And the book is all about how you can incorporate that into your career, and how you can be more of a generalist at work. And so, it's such a great book, and I would highly recommend it. Emilie Wapnick also has a TED Talk, so if you're not a reader, you can check out their TED Talk. And it's just a really, really great, great TED Talk. I love it.

Jeremy Cline [00:51:27]:
Cool. And if someone wants to find you, where should they go?

Steph Gillies [00:51:32]:
I am on LinkedIn. So, it's LinkedIn, just my name on LinkedIn, and I also have a website, destinationdreamjob.com.

Jeremy Cline [00:51:40]:
Links, as always, in the show notes. Steph, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Steph Gillies [00:51:45]:
Thank you so much for having me.

Jeremy Cline [00:51:48]:
Okay. Hope you enjoyed that interview with Steph Gillies. One of the points that Steph made that I'd like to highlight is this thing about transferable skills. Transferable skills can be acquired in the strangest places. It doesn't just have to be at work, but could be reflected in hobbies or other aspects of your personal life. Which leads on to the second point about crafting the story. When you start with the understanding that your role is to convince the recruiter that you have the skills and experience that they're looking for to fill a role, in some ways, it becomes a bit easier and gives you more focus. Yes, it means that you need to tailor your CV, but when you're tailoring it through that lens, it gives you some clarity about what points you can draw out. And it gives you the opportunity to think creatively about where you have acquired the skills and experience. Maybe you've never led a team at work, but you're chair of the committee of something you do outside of work. If you want to find the transcript and links to the resources Steph mentioned, then go to the show notes page for this episode, which are at changeworklife.com/203, that's changeworklife.com/203. And if you are one of these multi passionate generalists with lots of different interests, and you've come to a career crossroads, and you don't know which way to turn, maybe think about working with a coach who can help you to find the clarity about how to move forward. If you've never had coaching before and want to find out more, then you can set up a complimentary 30-minute coaching call with me. To do that, you can go to changeworklife.com/coaching, that's changeworklife.com/coaching to see what it's all about. In the meantime, subscribe to the show if you haven't already. There's going to be another great interview in two weeks' time, and I can't wait to see you then. Cheers. Bye.